How did you know you were ready to upgrade?

Realistically, your captain training starts on your first day.

Every captain should be mentoring their fo's and preparing them for upgrade. This covers every thing from leadership, authority to adm, and customer relations. If an fo hits ioe, and still has to ask "is this ok" then either he/she paid no attention during all the flying, or their captains failed to prep them.

That being said, 8 years in, and I'm guessing their were other issues.
 
Gonzo said:
I took a job at a airline thinking I would have a 8-9 yr upgrade maybe 7 years if I was lucky. 3 years in and it is looking like a 4-4.5 year upgrade is not out of the question.
My question is when did you know you were ready?
What do you wish you would have worked on before upgrading?
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That's probably a really good question to be asking. I think that flying-wise, we know when we're comfortable with the airplane. It's probably a little more difficult to tell when all the other stuff--CRM, maintenance, weather, all of the tough decisions that have to get made--is good to go. After 5 years as an FO I'm still seeing situations I've never been in.

mshunter said:
When the company you work for says "Your going to upgrade training."

If you're not ready for the upgrade, you won't pass the checkride.
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That's not really the case at all. A checkride mostly tests your ability to fly the airplane, which is a totally different thing from the management aspect of the position.
 
My best advice is: do not sit there and look out the window while the Captain is making decisions. Be involved, ask questions, be assertive yet respectful, and pay attention. If you can do all of this as an F/O, making the jump to the left seat will be a lot easier.
 
Gonzo said:
I took a job at a airline thinking I would have a 8-9 yr upgrade maybe 7 years if I was lucky. 3 years in and it is looking like a 4-4.5 year upgrade is not out of the question.
My question is when did you know you were ready?
What do you wish you would have worked on before upgrading?
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Eh, I was ready after a year personally. But flying the northeast gives you plenty of WX, diversions and other crap to deal with and I had 135 (134.5) experience and 120.5 (Colgan) experience. I upgraded with no issues, dealing with FO's who knew nothing was a PIA but you just go conservative and always plan ahead. Asking input is always the roll of a dice, most of the time you just say, "yeah... I don't think that's going to work because _________".

At my company we've had people upgrade who the company and union agreed to downgrade 1-2 years later, some later on than that. Those people thought they were ready too. If you are mature, safety conscience, a good stick, and are comfortable leading you'll be fine. If there's one thing this industry taught me, there are as many types of captains and number of pilots on your seniority list.
 
Seems like the general opinion here is that upgrading is something that is more "between the ears" than being a "good stick".
 
Doug Taylor said:
45 hours of IOE? Holy crap man.
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The norm at Pinnacle. If you upgrade with 250 hrs PIC or more, you get 25 hrs of CA IOE. If you upgrade with less than 250 hrs PIC (ATP with restriction of holder does not meet PIC standards for ICAO), then you are required to do 50 hrs of CA IOE.
 
SurferLucas said:
I know of a few Horizon FO's that upgraded, passed the checkride but couldn't get off of IOE. 2 were able to keep their jobs afterwards. One in particular, he/she took nearly 45 hrs of IOE before they said "Is this really going to work"?
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I would question the person who issued the PIC privilages, not the person at the stick. How did they pass the PIC type ride if they can't make it through IOE? IOE should be a cake walk compared to initial operating experince.
 
zmiller4 said:
That's not really the case at all. A checkride mostly tests your ability to fly the airplane, which is a totally different thing from the management aspect of the position.
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If you are not ready for the managment position of being PIC of an airliner, than what are you doing in the right seat as well. I have been im managment positions before, and you just do it. If you are not ready for the responsibility of that kind of position, what makes one think they are qualified to even be a pilot on the line at all. I have been doing the 135 charter gig for a little while now and have had to say no on occasion. I have also had to guide "team members" when I was a lead technician. You make a decision and either stick to it, or change your mind and deal with it. Lets not over complicate the reality of what being a "professional pilot" really is. What it all boils down to is "will this decision get the passengers to their destination in a safe manner." If the answer is no, whats the next solution? When you have exhausted all of your options, then it's finally time to admit you need help.

And, if you are in IOE and are still asking "is this o.k. to do, have a look at the training as well. Were you just trained "checkride" profiles? Or were you given the proper training to be the PIC OF THE FLIGHT, not just the airplane.
 
SurferLucas said:
Seems like the general opinion here is that upgrading is something that is more "between the ears" than being a "good stick".
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When you are PIC, or thinking like PIC, aircraft control really should be subliminal during normal operations. As stuff gets hairy (lots of lights that are normally off and stuff like that), then naturally, more of your time gets dedicated to making sure the greasy side stays down. Then again that's why they call it "abnormal" operations.

That being said, if you worry about passing the flying portion (not the "well, it was a bad day" style bounce that anyone can get), that should grab one's attention.

I liked to tell new CA's to slide the seat all the way back and out, have them turn so they can see the whole cockpit, then tell them this is where they need to fly from. If you can fly the entire flight from that point of view, then you're ready.
 
For me, the tricky part was the CRM/Crew Concept/Whatever stuff. A long time flying alone gets down in your gears in ways that you don't expect or maybe acknowledge. And while being an F/O for a time helps, it doesn't prepare you for that abnormal situation where the other guy is looking at you and saying "what do we do now?" In a weird way, it's a lot more stressful than the same situation single pilot. If it's just you, you do whatever you think is right and you wear the brown helmet if you're wrong. It's a whole different ball of wax when there are other people relying on and looking to you to eventuate a good outcome.

So, to more directly answer the question, I don't think I was "ready". I don't think you can be "ready", really. Like a lot of things in flying, you prepare the best you can and then pay very close attention to everything that is going on around you. Then, as others have said, you learn. I'm still learning.
 
Gonzo said:
I took a job at a airline thinking I would have a 8-9 yr upgrade maybe 7 years if I was lucky. 3 years in and it is looking like a 4-4.5 year upgrade is not out of the question.
My question is when did you know you were ready?
Click to expand...

When it's the Captain's leg and the conversation goes like this:

You: "Positive rate."

Him/Her: "Gear up."

You: "&$#@ you, stop telling me what to do!"


When you roll your eyes at almost everything the Captain says or does...


When even the good guys/gals are starting to piss you off...



What do you wish you would have worked on before upgrading?
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If you have to ask that question, you're not ready.


JMHO, YMMV.


Kevin
 
We upgrade in the C5 around 1000TT....guess things are done way differently on the airline side of the house.
 
My advice is not worth much compared to most replying I'm guessing, because I'm a very new captain (in fact last night I did my second diversion due to high minimums in four weeks!).

But, I'd say if you are thinking the same things that the PIC is and for the right reasons, and you find yourself thinking "I might have handled this situation a bit differently because..." then you are on the right track.

Really, anyone who is on one single aircraft type for 1000+ hours ought to be somewhat ready to be PIC. It is only the people who are sitting in the right seat just doing the bare minimum and along for the ride that I would think have trouble upgrading to the left seat.

One other thing. Knowledge of the FOM is more important. Anyone can fly the plane but if a ramper comes up with some bizarre dry ice/dogs combo loading question, or a passenger has a medical problem, or both your destination and your alternate fall well below minimums at the same time with 30 minutes until landing (had that a few weeks ago), and you can't come up with a solution, then it's going to turn into a situation that it shouldn't have to be.

But, I have 97.7 hours TPIC so I'm not really the one to listen to. :)
 
staplegun said:
When it's the Captain's leg and the conversation goes like this:

You: "Positive rate."

Him/Her: "Gear up."

You: "&$#@ you, stop telling me what to do!"


When you roll your eyes at almost everything the Captain says or does...


When even the good guys/gals are starting to piss you off...





If you have to ask that question, you're not ready.


JMHO, YMMV.


Kevin
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I agree with Kevin!

When I had barely finished a winter on the Beech, crew planning called and asked me if I wanted to go to upgrade. I had been thinking about it and how quickly it was coming, so when the question was presented to me I recalled the times I thought to myself well if it were me I'd...and that's all I needed to assure myself I was ready.

Upgrade training is generally no different than initial training with one BIG exception. They test your ability to make decisions ON YOUR OWN. Questions are fine, but question presentation makes a big difference. When you begin IOE, you should already be able to fly a trip on your own. The Checkairman is there to make sure this is true.

Honestly, I've seen a lot of very capable people way overthink the whole thing and oversaturate themselves with useless agendas. Most 121 pilots should be able to sit in a seat, watch a reasonably seasoned FO fly and ensure things are legal and safe and not get stuck on the little things.
 
As a new CA still on high mins... The "CA check" is when you are willing to say the 4 stripes means "it's all my fault" and you are comfortable with that. Before I upgraded I already looked at all the paperwork and books (without being in the CA's way and him/her knowing what I was doing) and being on the same page and thought process.

When you are comfortable knowing that a "CA request" is really a requirement and knowing/willing to stand on the sword knowing it. Diversions, Decisions, and actions without question is the requirement in the left seat. My first flight on RSV was with a brand new guy. Not being nervous about that was reassurance that I was in the correct seat for the flight.

Flying the airplane is only a simple process of switching hand movements, although I will say that getting to taxi is "Fun"... Call me a dork but the left seat is comfy when you are making decisions and not asking "is that right?"
 
Buzo said:
My best advice is: do not sit there and look out the window while the Captain is making decisions.
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I'm still a CFI, but I have to ask, are there really FO's out there who just come along to look out the window? I went on a trip the other day; I was in the rear seat, and I still found myself thinking of when we'd be starting our descent and what runway would be in use etc. I find it hard to believe that a FO would just sit there and not actively take part in the flight. Please tell me I misunderstood your post.
 
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