How DARE they strike!

[Chris_Ford]

I can't wait for the day someone walks upto you and punches you in the face, and when you ask them why they did that...........it's cuz its how the market works! Life= fair.

You've got a lot of maturing to do kid. May I ask you what your age is?

Me getting punched in the face is the result of the market? Maybe being slapped by the invisible hand.

I'm just going to make a broad generalization here, but judging from your location, you're one of those Berkeley geniuses who thinks you can't "own" property and that animals are people too.

I'm 21, but don't let that stop you from trying to produce a cogent counter-argument. You're debating with me that this ISN'T how things are. You're saying that athletes are not paid so much because that's how it is... Do you see how irrational that is?

 

[S40_flyer]

I bet the guy who wrote all that is some former airline pilot who lost his medical or soemthing and now hates all pilots for life...

 

[desertdog71]

I agree with you on the Teams self financing their own stadiums and such, I have no problem with that at all.

I do feel that without Sports teams, and the revenues they generate on the college level, it is quite possible that tuitions would be higher, and the facilities would not be as modern. Sponsorship dollars are huge in college atheletics and I am certain that all of that revenue is not going back to ONLY the sports programs.

I would on the other hand prefer that local taxes be spent on infra-structure and schools as opposed to other crap. It always pisses me off when they want to raise property taxes and still leave huge potholes in the streets, crappy city services, and not enough police and fire funding. Then our own children have to go and peddle crap door to door to pay for equipment and books at the schools. That sort of thing pisses me off more than an athelete making huge dollars.

 

[Chris_Ford]

On one hand, we need to focus our universities on attracting and creating new engineers, scientists, etc -- people that are going to build a modern, technological nation in order for the United States to remain relevant and cutting edge in the future. It should have been a wakeup call when large parts of major univerisities engineering departments are run by professors on work visas teaching pupils that a large percentage (majority?) of are on student visas. If we think we're going to remain a world power when the average 20 year old knows more about who won American Idol than a basic understanding of the pythagorean theory, we're kidding ourselves.

Agree wholeheartedly. HOWEVER, at Purdue for an example, our university president has changed the focus of the university to a "research institution". This has taken professors out of the classroom and into the lab, and ultimately raised our tuition in order to gain "prestige".

A university is there to teach. Athletics and research are secondary. However, one can argue that providing some of these athletes with the opportunity to go to college may benefit them, although I realize very few make much out of it (but there are a few for whom it has made a difference, so let's not discount that). Research, on the other hand, has no place in a university outside of designated projects for students. A professor is a teacher, not a scientist, and if they want to do research, there are plenty of laboratories that are government funded for that purpose.

On the other, I'm a 'doubting thomas' about the benefit of professional sports on the local economy because it happens in short spurts. The Fiesta Bowl may have a three or four day visitor footprint, the superbowl is always this holy grail that everyone attains to have but on the Monday after, the 'cost' side of the cost/benefit curve is negligible (much like the Olympics -- been to SLC or Torino recently?). Los Angeles wasn't crushed when the Rams and the Raiders left. St. Louis didn't economically float down the poop chute when the Cardinals left. I feel professional sports should self-finance without taxpayer dollars because as a citizen, the residual isn't worth the price.

Besides, the Superbowl is the single most overhyped event on earth. The world isn't chomping at the bits wondering if the Vikings are going to beat the Seahawks, no matter what Thom Brennamen says.

First, the Vikings and Seahawks are in the same conference .
Second, I agree that it's a short time, but often times these events will serve to revitalize the area. Look at how Baltimore's waterfront district renewed itself with the opening of Oriole Park at Camden Yards.

 

[Chris_Ford]

I bet the guy who wrote all that is some former airline pilot who lost his medical or soemthing and now hates all pilots for life...

Or maybe he's a layman who reads posts like yours and thinks that pilots are too cocky for what they do?

 

[tonyw]

"Most people" might not be able to hack as a pilot, but even less can make it to professional athlete.

You gotta throw in the minor leagues, all the way from rookie league to AAA ball, Europe, the arena league, the CFL, all the pro soccer leagues, the PGA and LPGA, Nascar, IRL, and F-1, etc first because all of those folks are professional athletes.

 

[mastermags]

You gotta throw in the minor leagues, all the way from rookie league to AAA ball, Europe, the arena league, the CFL, all the pro soccer leagues, the PGA and LPGA, Nascar, IRL, and F-1, etc first because all of those folks are professional athletes.

Don't forget the WNBA....1!11!!!

 

[Chris_Ford]

You gotta throw in the minor leagues, all the way from rookie league to AAA ball, Europe, the arena league, the CFL, all the pro soccer leagues, the PGA and LPGA, Nascar, IRL, and F-1, etc first because all of those folks are professional athletes.

Okay, and if you think wages suck at a regional, find out what someone in A-ball makes. I'll give you a clue. X,XXX is the number. If that. Further proof that pro athletes are certainly not overpaid.

Also, take a look at how many people try to be pro athletes. Look how many HS and college sports players there are, and you'll see that it's much much harder to become a pro athlete than a pilot. Seriously, think about the hardest test in aviation, the ATP written, right? Now, recognize that you're given all the questions and answers beforehand. Imagine how much more of a barrier it might be if they didn't tell you what the questions and answers were... This is still not even comparable to the barriers one needs to meet to become a pro athlete. Not to mention how easy it is to lose it all because of one minor injury (more minor than anything you'd lose your medical for). Since you guys like examples, I'll give one. A girl I know was #1 in the state I lived in for soccer, being actively recruited by the big female soccer schools (and at the time, the now-defunct WUSA). Gets taken down, gets up, plays the rest of the game, etc. A few days later she goes to the doctor because her leg hurts. one minor knee surgery later, her career is over. Now knee surgery on a pilot might put him out of service for a few months, but not the rest of his life.

 

[tonyw]

Okay, and if you think wages suck at a regional, find out what someone in A-ball makes. I'll give you a clue. X,XXX is the number. If that. Further proof that pro athletes are certainly not overpaid.

I never said they were.

I've got a buddy who got up to AA ball for the Expos/Nationals before he blew out his shoulder. I think he was paid about $30K a year or so. He was hoping to get to the show for a cup of coffee because then they would have to pay him the major league minimum.

I also knew someone who played for the DC United, and he was getting $30-35K. Not a huge amount of money, but a decent wage.

You've got a star system in aviation just like you do with sports and Hollywood. You've got a lot of guys scraping by, and then there is a small percentage that does very well. The only thing is, the numbers are a lot bigger for an A-Rod or Ahnold than they are for a pilot.

 

[Chris_Ford]

You've got a star system in aviation just like you do with sports and Hollywood. You've got a lot of guys scraping by, and then there is a small percentage that does very well. The only thing is, the numbers are a lot bigger for an A-Rod or Ahnold than they are for a pilot.

Which goes back to my "the market dictates who makes exorbitant amounts of money". Since people pay $100/seat to see A-Rod (since he's such a rarity), he's able to make $252M. Since people pay $100/seat JFK-NRT, Captain Senior is able to make $252K (I know it's high but the parallelism is aesthetically pleasing )

 

[gurisudenko]

Why do you read this crap? I never would have found that on my own.

I was researching airline pilot lifestyle and that's one of the articles that came up. I usually read more than I should when researching. Yeah I know, it's crap.

 

[tonyw]

Which goes back to my "the market dictates who makes exorbitant amounts of money".

I wouldn't say the market is everything there. Don't forget, there's a very powerful union associated with baseball and a lot of labor strife was involved in getting things to this point.

By the way, even A-Rod says he's overpaid. He kind of turned it around on Peter Gammons by saying, yes, I am, but Peter, if they gave you 25 million a year to do your job, would you take it?

And Gammons was honest and said yes.

 

[nwa757]

a real expert..... backing up his editorial with his name and all.

 

[grassrootsflying]

The education of professional pilots is as intense as a doctor's or a lawyer's education. A professional pilot never stops learning, studying, and training. It is not just any dork flying a multi-million dollar aircraft; it is not just any fool trusted with the lives of other humans in the air; it is not just any idiot taking the responsibility of making decisions which could affect the lives of many. It is an an individual who, in addition to his college years achieving a separate degree, has dedicated years of his life to get to where he/she is. It is a person who possesses the intelligence necessary to observe every bit of a complex environment and manage it, making it a seemingly simple process.

It's not any dork that can be a pro pilot, but it seems like some people underestimate doctors and the amount of their training. There are no bad US medical schools. In my experience, you can take an average person and with enough training and experience, they can become an average pilot.

But there is no average person who could become a doctor, no amount of training or experience can get someone into, then through a medical education. An average person will flunk out. Doctor's pay also involves limiting the number of medical schools to keep supply down, a powerful central organization, but my point is that supply of doctors is low in part because of the education required, and education is far more intense than a pilot's education. The amount of knowledge a doctor has to learn in their education cannot even be compared to the amount of knowledge a pilot has to learn in their education.

I did most of my pilot training while in college, I guarantee you, no person on earth could go through medical school while a full time student even if they wanted do. You can go start your flying career from scratch and in a few years be in a regional. To go through medical school requires 2 years related undergrad, 4 years medical school, and a residency of many years working 36 hour shifts. Want to go to any flight academy? Just pay them. Want to go to any medical school? Most pre-meds don't make it. Some pilots get an online degree and call it a 4 year degree. If you go to a community college, you can forget about getting into med school unless you developed the cure for cancer. Still think a pilot education can compare to doctor's education?

Supply of people who want to fly is high. Supply of people who can become doctors is low. An average person can become a pilot, the average person cannot become a doctor. When comparing pilots and doctors, I hope that this doctor forum will show you something. Check out this website and see what kind of education is required to be a doctor.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/index.php

 

[DE727UPS]

I once trained a doctor in Seattle for his IFR rating in my 172. He said it was the hardest thing he had ever done. Guess he didn't mean it....

 

[grassrootsflying]

I once trained a doctor in Seattle for his IFR rating in my 172. He said it was the hardest thing he had ever done. Guess he didn't mean it....

Addressing your comment, I find it hard to believe that an investment of about 30-60 hours for a leisure activity is harder than 6-9 years of cramming and 36 hour shifts for work with intense competition. Although getting your ego stroked always makes you believe other's words "You're the [best, fastest, strongest, smartest, etc]. "

You missed my point completely. "The education of professional pilots is as intense as a doctor's...education". It's not even close.

But who knows, for him it may have been the hardest thing he had ever done. People are people, you find jerks and geniuses in every field. But I firmly believe that the average doctor has a far more difficult education than the average pilot, and that's the only point I am trying to make. Yes it is correct, if you don't believe me, reread my above post and follow the link.

 

[CLR4ILS]

I used to get all worked up about stuff like this.

But I've learned one thing in the last 12 or so years of professional aviation:

The most scathingly opinionated people that opine how pilots are overpaid are usually screaming like little girls in the back of the airplane during emergencies and think you're the second coming of Jesus once you land safely.

"Crow" tastes good when served hot off the grill.

EXACTLY DOUG.....

reading through the posts down to yours I was just thinking, someone should invite the author up into the pit on final approach with heavy rain or snow, turbulence, and zero visibility AND GIVE THEM THE CONTROLS....

Then ask them who is over paid with "no scruples, heart, or even common decency!".


ILS

 

[derg]

True story:

I had the vice president of corporate security on the jumpseat once with authorization from the chief pilot. Well, it wasn't MY jumpseat, but it was the captain's.

The flight was full from DC to ATL so he got authorization from the head cheese to ride the jumpseat and then asked us for our permission to occupy it on the flight to Hooterville.

Pretty nice guy. Tough, had a law enforcement background, I think he was either former FBI or former armed forces, I can't remember, but during the boarding process, he told us a story or two and it seems like he'd be the type of guy that would run opposite direction of people trying to escape something. You know, the tough, selfless hero type. The kind of guy that'd make a good fireman or green beret.

But he was 'management' and lightly flavored conversation with it.

So we eventually push back, take off north have an uneventful flight and shoot the visual into ATL.

We land and taxi into the gate and it was almost if the guy hadn't breathed for the past 90 minutes.

"OH MY GOD THAT WAS THE MOST EXCITING THING EVER! I thought you guys just pushed buttons and we'd all complain about how much money you guys made, but OH MY GOD you guys deserve every bit if not more. Do you guys ever get scared? how much is it for a private..."

And on and on and on.

The author of the editorial probably thinks he's a tough guy and how the entire world is overpaid, but he's paid 'just right', but when elbows hit the table, the general public HAS NO CLUE unless you educate them.

Life is full of irony. The author will have an epiphany one day, hopefully not too serious.

 

[CLR4ILS]

True story:

I had the vice president of corporate security on the jumpseat once with authorization from the chief pilot. Well, it wasn't MY jumpseat, but it was the captain's.

The flight was full from DC to ATL so he got authorization from the head cheese to ride the jumpseat and then asked us for our permission to occupy it on the flight to Hooterville.

Pretty nice guy. Tough, had a law enforcement background, I think he was either former FBI or former armed forces, I can't remember, but during the boarding process, he told us a story or two and it seems like he'd be the type of guy that would run opposite direction of people trying to escape something. You know, the tough, selfless hero type. The kind of guy that'd make a good fireman or green beret.

But he was 'management' and lightly flavored conversation with it.

So we eventually push back, take off north have an uneventful flight and shoot the visual into ATL.

We land and taxi into the gate and it was almost if the guy hadn't breathed for the past 90 minutes.

"OH MY GOD THAT WAS THE MOST EXCITING THING EVER! I thought you guys just pushed buttons and we'd all complain about how much money you guys made, but OH MY GOD you guys deserve every bit if not more. Do you guys ever get scared? how much is it for a private..."

And on and on and on.

The author of the editorial probably thinks he's a tough guy and how the entire world is overpaid, but he's paid 'just right', but when elbows hit the table, the general public HAS NO CLUE unless you educate them.

Life is full of irony. The author will have an epiphany one day, hopefully not too serious.

Very true indeed....

I flew my brother from Seattle down to Portland in the Seminole. Broke out at about 1000', nothing major. All he had to say was.... "much respect" after we landed. I had to tell him to release his death grip from the door handle so we could exit the aircraft.

and that was in the Seminole...

Funny how people have an overwhelming respect for pilots AFTER they experience flight from the front seats...

ILS

 

[jtrain609]

Addressing your comment, I find it hard to believe that an investment of about 30-60 hours for a leisure activity is harder than 6-9 years of cramming and 36 hour shifts for work with intense competition. Although getting your ego stroked always makes you believe other's words "You're the [best, fastest, strongest, smartest, etc]. "

I want to reply with a really nasty reply about how the national failure rate for CFI cadidates is something like 90% and how I spent a lot longer than 30-60 hours training for something that I consider much more complex than a "leisure activity," and I've only got through my flight instructor ratings.

Those that haven't gotten that far seem to complain the most about how pilots only deserve what the market will provide them. I have NO idea what level of training you're at, or whether you're working as a professional pilot right now. I don't really care to be honest. This is more than a leisure activity for some people.