Hope it happens
- Thread starter buffalopilot
- Start date
Airdale
Well-Known Member
I just got my instrument ticket at ATP and now I'm finishing up cross countries for the Commercial checkride. One things for sure, I'm starting to have my doubts that I made the right choice to do this. After ATP, I'll be almost $60,000 in debt. Not very good for $10k yearly salaries. And I'll tell you one thing, I am in no way working at any airline for that kind of pay. I can take over a hardwood floor business and make $100k a year easily. They say its not about the money, bulls**t. To a certain extent it is. In an economy that continues to inflate the cost of living and decrease the wages, money is very important. Ask some bum living in a one bedroom cell in the city if money is important. I'm not working for such low salaries. I intend to work for a local college flight instructing, and see what happens in the near future. I can't take such a low paying job though. I love flying, but I should have taken someone's advice about doing it as a hobby, not a career. This industry looks like s**t, smells like s**t and doesn't look like its getting better anytime soon for those just trying to make it. I see guys get hired all the time with low hours at some crappy regional paying them peanuts. Its bs and I'd rather go back to working on floors than work for that kind of money. Most people in the flight schools just want to be there, reguardless of the pay. Sad. Its sad that such a reputable profession has fell into the dumpsters. And go figure its my damn luck too. This is all I've ever wanted to do, but I can't catch a break. I can't even catch a break with flying, I am always faced with crappy weather.
fender_jag
Well-Known Member
Airdale said:
Good post, Airdale. So you're gonna be 60k in the hole? Check out this link to see how long you'll be paying interest and principal: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml
This opinion is probably unpopular, but here goes: I'd take the job in the hardwood floor business, get your debt paid off, flight instruct on the side, and then reassess an airline career. Again, just another opinion...
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
I'd just like to take a second to point out that if the FAs were all going on strike (not backed by the pilots), you wouldn't likely hear fellow pilots going "Yeah, take 'em out of business!!!" It just goes to show how perspective is in the eye of the beholder 
Airdale
Well-Known Member
fender_jag said:
From the loan calculator:
"It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $54,000.00 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $36,000.00 , but you may experience some financial difficulty."
I'm F'ed. I'm not sure I can flight instruct and install floors at the same time. Doing the floors requires at least 6hr days. Wow man, I just do not feel good right now. Flying's fun, but living out of a cardboard box isn't worth it. What the hell am I going to do. I gotta figure something out. I'd hate to work in another profession and be paying back this loan for a shot I took at becoming a professional pilot.
fender_jag
Well-Known Member
Don't lose sleep over it. I know people who have twice as much debt as you do, and either they're comfortably numb or very good at masking their true concern of how the heck they're gonna pay the loan back.
Keep your head up; things will work out.
Keep your head up; things will work out.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"EVERY SINGLE MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT ON THIS FORUM would have leapt for a shot to fly a jet at 300 hours!"
That's not the way it worked. Jet's were either Learjets or at the airlines. Both required skills beyond a 300 hour pilot unless you were a seat warmer or something. 300 hours would get you a CFI job if you knew the right people back in those days. 1500/500 and an ATP would give you a shot at what are the regionals, today. Most got 135 jobs BEFORE moving to a regional. But to go to a jet at 300 hours? It just didn't happen...
I can look back with 20/20 hindsight on some things I could have done differently that would have accelerated my career, but none of them would have put me in a jet at 300 hours. Somehow, I just knew I didn't belong there.
That's not the way it worked. Jet's were either Learjets or at the airlines. Both required skills beyond a 300 hour pilot unless you were a seat warmer or something. 300 hours would get you a CFI job if you knew the right people back in those days. 1500/500 and an ATP would give you a shot at what are the regionals, today. Most got 135 jobs BEFORE moving to a regional. But to go to a jet at 300 hours? It just didn't happen...
I can look back with 20/20 hindsight on some things I could have done differently that would have accelerated my career, but none of them would have put me in a jet at 300 hours. Somehow, I just knew I didn't belong there.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
fender_jag said:
Cool! I can pay off my loans only making $19,000 a year! This career was obviously a good choice for me!
Cool link.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
DE727UPS said:
Well, you know and I know it didn't work that way, Don! However, most folks would have done it!
bob loblaw
New Member
Mr_Creepy said:
No, because the government thinks we make too much money!
blee256
Well-Known Member
Nick said:
Though I do agree with you on most of your posts in this thread I am gonna have to disagree with you pay not going up if mins are changed.
(1) ASA was badly in need of pilots last year because of attrition. ASA pilots were jumping ship because of things supposedly getting bad and frustration over the contract negotiations. Prior to June of last year their mins were 1200 tt, They have since dropped it to 600tt, and now they got people sitting around in a pool.
(2) Colgan got the new contract from Continental to fly props that Skywest used to do. So they experiencing rapid growth. Instead of offer better pay or benefits to attract more pilots, they started interviewing people with less than 1000tt, their posted mins.
(3) I believe that PSA was the same way. Their mins used to be 1500tt ( can someone confirm this?) adn then they started hiring people with less time.
My point is that most airlines to attract pilots, they just lower the requirements instead of enticing them with better pay or benefits. Any other job in any other industry if they cant fill a position, they dont just reduce the qualifications, they offer a better compensation package. Some airlines have chosen to take this route as well.
(1) Skywest airlines because of all their growth with United had a lot of slots to fill. Instead of lowering their mins if 1000tt and 100 multi. They offered paid training. It used to be no pay during trainig, but did provide hotel. But now included with hotel room is 65 horus of pay.
(2)pinnacle airlines. This place has a bad reputation as far as workplace goes. Once they stopped hiring gulfstreamers they had to really go out and find pilots. But pinnacle paid for nothing in training. Now because they couldnt fill classes, they pay for hotel and 200/week in training. Now thats nothing to brag about, but its alot better than no pay no room.
So I strongly believe that Airlines not being able to lower mins would result in better pay. At least initiallly during training.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"your peers would have jumped at the opportunity to get into an RJ..."
I can't speak for my peers, but for myself, I don't think so...
Back in the day, the silver lining was that you put up with a lot of crap cause you had a good shot at a major job (read: great flying job) if you stuck with it long enough. Today, there is much less chance that you'll find such a great major job. Tomorrow, who knows? And that's what I think a lot of guys are hoping for, a return to the good old days.
Myself, I'm a niche player. Today I wouldn't go to a regional. I'd go 135 freight and look for a great run I enjoy doing all the time that isn't too much work. Then, I'd look for a 3rd level jet freight company (Kittyhawk) or a larger 121 turboprop freight company (Empire) to move up to. That would suffice as a career and be at least equal to a regional.
Some would prefer a regional over my plan. To each his own. But I think it's a stretch to say I would have jumped on what is today's regional job at 300 hours....and that's really what you want to hear. I might have if was a sure thing to lead to a major job in three years. But it wasn't, and it isn't, but if that was the way things worked, I guess everyone would be doing this...
I can't speak for my peers, but for myself, I don't think so...
Back in the day, the silver lining was that you put up with a lot of crap cause you had a good shot at a major job (read: great flying job) if you stuck with it long enough. Today, there is much less chance that you'll find such a great major job. Tomorrow, who knows? And that's what I think a lot of guys are hoping for, a return to the good old days.
Myself, I'm a niche player. Today I wouldn't go to a regional. I'd go 135 freight and look for a great run I enjoy doing all the time that isn't too much work. Then, I'd look for a 3rd level jet freight company (Kittyhawk) or a larger 121 turboprop freight company (Empire) to move up to. That would suffice as a career and be at least equal to a regional.
Some would prefer a regional over my plan. To each his own. But I think it's a stretch to say I would have jumped on what is today's regional job at 300 hours....and that's really what you want to hear. I might have if was a sure thing to lead to a major job in three years. But it wasn't, and it isn't, but if that was the way things worked, I guess everyone would be doing this...
DE727UPS said:
Grand overgeneralization.
They may, perhaps. But then he became a little more seasoned 1500 hour pilot with some of the luster buffed away, with a wife and a mortgage making ends meet on a wage structure that could only attract 300 hour pilots, he'd have second thoughts.
That's why it's important that there's a free flow of information from "those in the know" with "those that wanna be" despite what an un-named flight school thinks.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Doug Taylor said:
No doubt there.
Well, he should. But in youth, there is often stupidity!
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
mach77 said:
Not really until you're released for "self-help".
If the judge discovers that you've deviated from 'traditionally' normal ops/status quo prior to being released, he's going to whack your pee pee.
Trust me. I'm a member of a pilot group which had individuals sued for not volunteering to fly voluntary overtime at traditional rates by a labor judge during a labor/management standoff.
Sadly, we're continuing to devolve into a new American serfdom.
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
Nick said:
That "attitude" right there is why pay at regionals sucks.
Until people realise there are no more regionals (they're almost all national/mainline/flag carriers at this point) they pay will stay low.
The chances of anyone at the regionals making it to a major in the next three to five years is nill. After that? well all the guys that have been stuck in the middle of the senority lists at the regionals will move up to the majors and the vast majority of people will still be stuck at the "regional" level.