Hope it happens

That's all you had to say.

Then what does your chasing "the dream" have to do with? If pilots don't strike and say they won't take the $10,000 a year contract, then what is the other option? Not take the job? They've already got their jobs! The company is trying to throw out a legal contract, which you or me could never do but corporations seem to be able to do at will.
 
I would say the option is to find another job if they are there, or do not work there if they are not.

If a company changes a pay rate improperly, then I would say that is a reason to take collective action.

Remember folks, that a strike is like a nuke. You really don't ever want to toss it, but use it as a deterrent.
 
Well, here's my take on things.

You negotiate a pay rate with your employer that you can both live with. That pay rate is set in stone for a period of time. Unless of course somebody at the top end of managment fumbles the company and decides that beacuse of their SNAFU somebody else needs to take the responsiblity for the company bleeding cash.

So the corporation goes to a judge and says, "Listen, we screwed up, and the only way we can fix this is if YOU allow us to pay our employee's somewhere below the poverty line. But we still keep our jobs!"

So the way I look at this, it's a fiscal responsibility issue. Either you are mature at handling a company and it's finances or you're not and you lose your job. Unforunatly there is ZERO responsibility at the top of corporations (I'm speaking in general now) and instead of the guys at the top taking their place on the choping block for their screwups, the people that they are leading get the axe.

That's not leadership, that's a cop out. I'm into personal responsiblity, and the way corporations in America are governed these days it takes away all that responsibility from the people that throw company's down the crapper.
 
John Herreshoff said:
I do in fact assert that they have that right under the railway labor act. That'd be a hard one to dispute.
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How so? How exactly does the Railway Labor Act and federal bankruptcy law interact? Which takes precedent? If a contract is legally adjusted in a bankruptcy court under federal law is it not a legally binding contract? I know bankruptcy courts often force vendors and lessors to continue their relationships with the filer. How are labor contracts different?

I'm just asking. You seem to know these things. I'd honestly like to know.

I know there is some precedent. Like CAL and Lorenzo. But the bankruptcy law was rewritten after that for just that reason. Since both sides seem sure of their positions it may be something that will have to get clarified by appealing a bankruptcy judge's ruling.

So the corporation goes to a judge and says, "Listen, we screwed up, and the only way we can fix this is if YOU allow us to pay our employee's somewhere below the poverty line. But we still keep our jobs!"
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I'm just curious. At which major airlines that filed bk did the CEOs keep their jobs? I can't think of any. And at which of those that filed bk is the current CEO not making considerably less than his predecessor? Again, just curious.
 
Honestly, I'm hedging a bet that the BK judge is going to throw out the company's offer and tell the pilots to do what they have to do. I can't imagine a judge is going to look at a bunch of highly trained professionals and say "I know you'd make more if you were unemployed and collecting welfare, but you're only going to make $10,000 a year now."

You're right, if the BK judge throws and says that they need to take the contract then they won't be able to legally strike. I have a feeling they will anyways, though.

I think United's old CEO would be a great example of flushing a company down the crapper (they filed BK shortly after he left eh?) and being allowed to stick around a lot longer than he should have. A friend of mine (who's father works for United) had been telling me since about 1998 the guy was throwing the company away and nobody was doing anything about it.

Even when he left, he still got millions in severance.
 
flyover said:
I'm just curious. At which major airlines that filed bk did the CEOs keep their jobs? I can't think of any
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Hell, man, if you want to give me several million dollars and tens of millions in deferred comp that's banktruptcy proof to leave, I'll be asking, where do I sign?
 
John what fiscal responsibility do you want from CEOs? Pilots are outside minimum wage laws because of the negotiated labor contract.

They are being fiscally responsible to their shareholders when they paypilots as little as possible.

Seriously, until pilot factories like UND, Comair (or whatever they want to call it now) and the like stop puking out 250 hr CFIs that are hungry for ANY pilot job, it's not going to be feasible to charge more for the labor.
 
I'm not talking about those guys.

Those guys don't matter.

Those guys can't vote whether to strike or not.

Those guys can't vote whether to accept the company's offer on a contract.

They are completely outside the realm of this discussion. Further it's interesting to see the reason for the downfall of the industry jump from month to month. First it was RJ's, then it was that mainline pilots didn't hold onto the RJ's, then it was scabs, then it was Gulfstream and now it's that low time CFI's are willing to accept low pay for these jobs.

So you can't bring those low time CFI's into the equation. They are not voting on whether to accept the $10,000 a year job. The guys that are first year pilots are Mesaba that signed a contract that said they would work for $20,000 a year but then had it ripped out from under them and replaced with $10,000 a year is the issue at hand.
 
John Herreshoff said:
. . . and now it's that low time CFI's are willing to accept low pay for these jobs.
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What's strange about that argument (not arguing for or against it in this observation) is that EVERY SINGLE MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT ON THIS FORUM would have leapt for a shot to fly a jet at 300 hours!
 
I see your point John, but we have to remember that they are out there, and they will take the job.

I'd have to hear more of the details of how the Mesaba contract was changed, or ignored, or just plain violated.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
What's strange about that argument (not arguing for or against it in this observation) is that EVERY SINGLE MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT ON THIS FORUM would havelept for a shot to fly a jet at 300 hours!
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Sad, but most likely true in my case.

I was drinking "jet kool-aid" back in those days.
 
John Herreshoff said:
Honestly, I'm hedging a bet that the BK judge is going to throw out the company's offer and tell the pilots to do what they have to do. I can't imagine a judge is going to look at a bunch of highly trained professionals and say "I know you'd make more if you were unemployed and collecting welfare, but you're only going to make $10,000 a year now."

You're right, if the BK judge throws and says that they need to take the contract then they won't be able to legally strike. I have a feeling they will anyways, though.
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Ok, so their "right" to strike is a little disputable then.

I think United's old CEO would be a great example of flushing a company down the crapper (they filed BK shortly after he left eh?)
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My mistake. I thought you said something about them keeping their jobs.

and being allowed to stick around a lot longer than he should have. A friend of mine (who's father works for United) had been telling me since about 1998 the guy was throwing the company away and nobody was doing anything about it.

Even when he left, he still got millions in severance.
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Look, I'm not defending these guys or CEO compensation. My only hope is they let shareholders settle it and not the government.

I just get a little weary of the complete rewriting of history that sometimes goes on. The bankruptcy of the industry has wiped out the shareholders, devastated the employees, and btw has substantially reduced top management pay. That's just a fact, all emotion aside. There is no upside to bankruptcy for anyone involved. In fact, one of the reasons that bankruptcy laws were put in place and have been updated and strenghthened over the years is the argument that it preserves jobs. I would argue that, as usual, some lawmakers' attempts to "help" have lead to unintended consequences for labor, since it keeps weak companies alive. On the other hand, if there were no bankruptcy code other issues would come up that would not be very attractive.

If any CEO had done what was necessary to position his company for the current environment he would have, among other things, been considered worse than Frank Lorenzo by the unions and fought at every turn. It just wasn't in the cards for anyone, including labor, to wake up and see what was coming. Which makes all the fingerpointing even more futile. It was a team effort.

This is a great forum to debate the "truth" of what's happening in this industry. It's just amazing how many "truths" there are to see. Peace.
 
tonyw said:
Hell, man, if you want to give me several million dollars and tens of millions in deferred comp that's banktruptcy proof to leave, I'll be asking, where do I sign?
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Well first you've got to make CEO. Better get crackin'.:)
 
Mr_Creepy said:
Sad, but most likely true in my case.

I was drinking "jet kool-aid" back in those days.
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Well, it's not that it's sad, John - it's called human nature. Everybody wants to be able to move forward in their career. It's very difficult for somebody to fight that temptation for the "greater good".

It's not the fault of the low-time pilots that management is taking advantage of them.
 
flyover,


You raise some good points. You're right, there are some predications that my argument is based on I didn't discuss.

You should check out a book called "Gangs of America." It's a real interesting take on how the modern corporation and their lack of liability is destroying our country. The best part is that it's written by a fairly successful CEO.
 
flyover said:
Well first you've got to make CEO. Better get crackin'.:)
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Maybe if I start speaking FOB Engrish, they'll put me up there as an affirmative action hire?

In all seriousness, though, getting fired as a CEO doesn't have the same sting as it does for the rest of us. We'll get, what, a month of severance, tops, and benefits for a month?

Those guys walk with a few million right away, and then tens of millions in deferred comp that's bankruptcy proof.

Hell, man, if I were a CEO, I'd be begging them to fire me. Sit on my butt at some tropical island, sip margaritas on the beach, and collect money.

Not a bad gig, eh?:)
 
tonyw said:
Hell, man, if I were a CEO, I'd be begging them to fire me. Sit on my butt at some tropical island, sip margaritas on the beach, and collect money.

Not a bad gig, eh?:)
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Yep, all you have to do is get it.:)
 
John Herreshoff said:
flyover,


You raise some good points. You're right, there are some predications that my argument is based on I didn't discuss.

You should check out a book called "Gangs of America." It's a real interesting take on how the modern corporation and their lack of liability is destroying our country. The best part is that it's written by a fairly successful CEO.
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I'll put it in line to read. Look I'm probably more anti-capitalist than most people on this forum, including Aloft.:)

This country was founded on, and it's strength continus to be, free enterprise. Capitalism used to be a dirty word that strictly meant "making money with money". Now that definition has changed to fit the times, just as the definition of democracy has been rewritten so that we now call our system of government a democracy.

Capitalism leads directly to speculation. And it's in that speculative environment that things like CEO pay get out of whack. Keep in mind, very few ALPA pilots were complaining about skyrocketing CEO pay in the 90s while their 401Ks and portfolios were booming.

So I'm no fan of any of this stuff. The airline I worked for was started by an entrepreneur and capitalized by risk taking investors. The further it moved from that the more it lost it's roots. But it took many years to do that, as the shadow of our founder was a long one and some of our original investors stayed around for a long time. They were owners, not speculators, and they took that responsibility seriously.

But finally the employees, including the ALPA leadership, were cheering that the last "home-grown CEO" was out the door and new "smart" leaders were taking the reins. Leaders that knew only one thing for sure, what their compensation package was. It was just a few short years to complete ruin and the end. That's capitalism. Quite distinct from free enterprise, entrepreneurship and ownership.

So I'm with you on all that.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Well, it's not that it's sad, John - it's called human nature. Everybody wants to be able to move forward in their career. It's very difficult for somebody to fight that temptation for the "greater good".

It's not the fault of the low-time pilots that management is taking advantage of them.
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I think it is sad. I think it's sad that for some flight instructors that they're getting an increase in pay to fly for a regional. I think it's sad that there aren't more flight instructors like yourself and the ones that my flight school. The kind that realize your next step should always be a promotion. When I first decided I was going to pursue aviation as a career I was all ready to go to ATP and then onto a regional. When I sat down and talk to my mentor and told him of my plans he informed me if I went down that path he would no longer be my mentor. He opened my eyes to other options. And it wasn't just talk he should be proof. Other people he had mentor in the past progressed from CFI, 135(epps), major(he knows people at Cathay, UPS, and several other majors that are not hiring at this time). My primary flight instructor has been instructing for three years now. He splits his time 50-50 between flight instruction and 135 charters. He makes the equivalent to most 5th year CA pay. He has an application in with net jets(even if he doesn't get this job he has one on the table at epps King air CA). Some will say he hasn't paid his dues because he never flew at a regional. I say he was just smarter than everyone who flew at a regional. He never had to work for substandard wages. He only overnights once every two months. The problem is people like you and him are a dying breed. We are a society of instant gratification. Sorry about the long post is something I had to get off my chest.
 
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