Holy Spin training batman...

[ryan1234]

Many of the comments in this thread are exactly the reason why I continue to think acro (including spins) should be part of pilot training from the beginning.

May be going a little outside the envelope here... but good formation training may not be a bad idea either. The wingman/lead relationship, situational awareness, decision making etc... seems like it produces many valuable 'airmanship' skills.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

May be going a little outside the envelope here... but good formation training may not be a bad idea either. The wingman/lead relationship, situational awareness, decision making etc... seems like it produces many valuable 'airmanship' skills.

You're right in the envelope. There are a lot of things it would be "not a bad idea" to train for. Spins, acro, water, formation, ...

Heck, probably shouldn't allow someone to become a private pilot without an instrument rating since, after all, I'd guess the number of fatalities from VFR flight into IMC far outnumber the fatalities from unintentional spins and unintended upside-down flight combined. Why not force people to take training that would actual make a safty difference?

 

[Hacker15e]

May be going a little outside the envelope here... but good formation training may not be a bad idea either. The wingman/lead relationship, situational awareness, decision making etc... seems like it produces many valuable 'airmanship' skills.

To be fair, there are LOTS of types of high performance flying that produce "valuable airmanship skills" -- formation being one of them -- but just aren't feasible for the vast majority of FAA pilot training.

If I were king for a day, I'd love to make every pilot go through the USAF's training program, which includes acro, instruments, formation, and low level navigation all within the first 5 months. That produces a VERY capable basic single engine instrument/commercial-level pilot. But, we knot that's just not really financially doable, nor is it something that provides enough value at the PPL/CPL level to make the risk and expense worth it. The cost of the first half of USAF pilot training when I went through in the late 90s (which included all of ground school and about 80 hours in the T-37 covering 6 months) was on the order of $200,000 per person. Obviously the cost/return there just isn't possible for 99% of Americans.

I think, however, that basic acro (loops, rolls, etc) and advanced handling (REALLY unusual attitude recovery, accelerated stalls, spins, etc) are "value added" types of training at the PPL/CPL level -- ESPECIALLY for anyone operating for hire at the CPL level.

My proposal would be something on the order of aerobatics and spins being required training for the CPL (either CMEL or CSEL - a pilot would only have to accomplish the training once). Although it would require a specialized (and more expensive to operate) aircraft, as well as some different personal equipment (chutes), it would actually provide very important confidence building and skills that could save lives and equipment.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

It is a shame that the majority of civvie pilots, at least the ones from traditional training backgrounds, have never been upside down in an airplane. Such a basic thing that builds so much confidence quickly....it is astounding to me that this isn't part of every syllabus

Hacker's got the right idea to remedy that, I think. The hard part will be getting the FAA to make it so.

 

[Mike H]

No, the hard part would be getting enough people to finish their pilot training with all these new "good idea" requirements piled on and keep aviation from dying off alltogether

 

[Roger, Roger]

Although it would require a specialized (and more expensive to operate) aircraft

A new citabria is about half the cost of a 172 and burns less gas. It can't do sustained inverted flight but it will spin all day long and do most basic acro. Food for thought.

 

[Hacker15e]

No, the hard part would be getting enough people to finish their pilot training with all these new "good idea" requirements piled on and keep aviation from dying off alltogether

How do you figure that?

Acro and advanced handling could be done in fewer rides than a tailwheel checkout these days. It's really not that complicated...especially for someone at the Commercial level.

 

[Mike H]

My comments were directed more toward those advocating all these add ons to the PPL level, but I'm not really convinced they'd be all that necessary at the CPL level either.

For the CFI level, however... plenty of room for discussion- and maybe throw a tailwheel endorsement on the fire to boot

 

[Hacker15e]

My comments were directed more toward those advocating all these add ons to the PPL level, but I'm not really convinced they'd be all that necessary at the CPL level either.

For the CFI level, however... plenty of room for discussion- and maybe throw a tailwheel endorsement on the fire to boot

I agree that it's not feasible or realistic at the PPL level...it's just in my own dream world that acro should be taught as part of core primary flying training. I think it would produce a much better, more confident, more skilled aviator -- the ultimate objective of training any pilot.

It's more of a serious thought process for Commerical pilots and higher. In line with the discussion in this thread:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/122773-klm-upset-training.html

 

[ryan1234]

My comments were directed more toward those advocating all these add ons to the PPL level, but I'm not really convinced they'd be all that necessary at the CPL level either.

For the CFI level, however... plenty of room for discussion- and maybe throw a tailwheel endorsement on the fire to boot

There are definitely arguments that not many 'pilots' are capable or even have the slightest desire to deviate from straight and level flying. However, the 250 hour Commercial requirement could be used a bit better to produce more airmanship skills. There is no denying that good acro instruction will make you more skilled in the basic art of the stick and rudder.

 

[SteveC]

...it's just in my own dream world that acro should be taught as part of core primary flying training. I think it would produce a much better, more confident, more skilled aviator -- the ultimate objective of training any pilot.

You mean that it SHOULD be the ultimate objective of training any pilot. Unfortunately the majority of civvie training is geared towards making pilots that can pass the required check rides for the least possible amount of money.

The REALLY sad part about the above statement is that many (most?) pilots have also bought into that goal.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

You mean that it SHOULD be the ultimate objective of training any pilot. Unfortunately the majority of civvie training is geared towards making pilots that can pass the required check rides for the least possible amount of money.

The REALLY sad part about the above statement is that many (most?) pilots have also bought into that goal.

I disagree on the sadness. Yes it would be nice is every pilot int he world waqs a "top gun" with "the right stuff." It would also be nice if every driver had the skills of a racing top-5, that every police officer on the beat had the legal knowledge of a Supreme Court justice, that every doctor...

But that just isn't life. And pilots have lived long, happy and productive ones without all the add-ons the "macho makers" want to insist they have.

Truthfully - I always wonder whether the same people who complain about government intrusion are also the ones that want to impose all sorts of new government requirements. Those folks have a great future as politicians.

 

[Hacker15e]

But that just isn't life. And pilots have lived long, happy and productive ones without all the add-ons the "macho makers" want to insist they have.

And yet, others have found themselves in emergencies or other situations where such experience could have benefited them greatly, saving them and the pax in back from the fiery, violent deaths they experienced.

Got nothing to do with 'macho'.

 

[Mike H]

And yet, others have found themselves in emergencies or other situations where such experience could have benefited them greatly, saving them and the pax in back from the fiery, violent deaths they experienced.

I doubt there's any way to quantify that.

The other side of the coin is that in all but a very few of these cases, the added experience wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I doubt there's any way to quantify that.

The other side of the coin is that in all but a very few of these cases, the added experience wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever

I agree. Good bet that, with VERY rare exceptions, unintentional spins are the result of bad pilot technique or poor decision making. The two classic unintentional spins are the cross-controlled turn to final (300-400 AGL) and low-level maneuvering flight. IOW, the pilots best thinking got him into a spin at low altitude. Really think he's going to get out of it, even with the training? I'm betting on "oh sh<crash>".

I'd also be willing to make a wager that if spin training returned as a private pilot requirement, the FAA would find the exact same results as they did when they removed it:

==============================
The spin, a controlled or uncontrolled maneuver or performance in which the glider or airplane descends in a helical path while flying at an angle of attack greater than the angle of maximum lift, was a required training maneuver for pilot certification until 1949. It was deleted from the pilot certification requirements based on the high number of fatal stall and spin accidents, most of which occurred during training. The FAA has since placed greater emphasis on spin avoidance, particularly on training in the avoidance of unintentional stalls or unwanted unusual attitudes. This shift in training requirements resulted in a significant decrease in the number of stall/spin accidents since 1949. NTSB statistics indicate that stall/spin accidents fell from 48 percent of fatal general aviation accidents during the period 1945-48, to 22 percent during 1967-69, and to 12 or 13 percent in the 1970's.
==============================

IOW, exactly what a lot of us on both sides of the issue complain about the most - a bunch of CFIs who were really not all that qualified, teaching something only because it was a requirement, aka "teaching to the test."

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I doubt there's any way to quantify that.

The other side of the coin is that in all but a very few of these cases, the added experience wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever

A complete mastery of angle of attack, though, isn't going to hurt anyone. And having felt what one feels on approach to spin ("Hey! one ass cheek is heavier than another, I should do something about this!") is helpful for avoiding spins too.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Loss of Control in flight is still the most common cause of fatalities, both airline and GA.

Kind of makes it the obvious low hanging fruit to direct attention towards.

 

[Mike H]

Loss of Control in flight is still the most common cause of fatalities, both airline and GA.

Kind of makes it the obvious low hanging fruit to direct attention towards.

I don't have the latest NALL report handy, but I don't think that's correct. I'm pretty sure I remember takeoff/landing accidents topping the list.

I'm willing to be corected, though, if you can cite some numbers.

 

[Scared to Fly]

Anyone have some insight on the spin characteristics of a 182M? I'm flying jumpers and would like to mix up my descents. I'm thinking a spin would be less stress on the airframe than pushing VNE.

 

[ryan1234]

Anyone have some insight on the spin characteristics of a 182M? I'm flying jumpers and would like to mix up my descents. I'm thinking a spin would be less stress on the airframe than pushing VNE.

Just try it out... worse case, you just use your reserve rig