Holding

B767Driver

B767Driver

New Member
You are cleared to an arbitrary point in space...and are RNAV (FMS/GPS/INS) equipped. Let's say that point is the ATL 300 degree radial at 40 DME.

Here's my question. Can you hold on any direction from that fix...or only on the radial from the VOR that identifies the fix?

For example...can ATC clear you to hold South/North/East/West of the ATL300RAD/40DME fix?

Or can ATC only clear you to hold NW and SE of the fix (on the 300 deg radial that makes up the fix)? (Without RNAV...this would be the only way to hold at this intersection.)

I've always thought using RNAV, ATC could instruct you to hold any direction from this waypoint. Am I mistaken? I've been told I'm wrong.
 
With an FMS you can hold any direction you feel like. Once you program it in it is the same as any intersection. And as far as the FMS is concerned you can project "radials" off of ot and hold on any inbound course to it that you want to.
 
I was in re-current training this weekend and received the following clearance: B767 cleared direct to the ATL300Rad/30Dme fix. Upon reaching the the fix hold NW, Standard Turns, 10DME Legs, EFC 1830Z.

I asked what radial he wanted me to hold NW of the fix on and he looked at me like I was crazy. He stated that an intersection cannot have a "radial" as only VORs could. I then stated what course outbound from the fix he wanted me to hold.

In the ensuing discussion, the instructor stated that the only possible hold on this intersection would be NW or SE, since that is the radial that defines the fix off the VOR (he said it would only be legal to hold on the ATL300DegRad, either NW or SE of the fix).

With an FMS this is not the case....as stated in the previous posts. He proceeded to tell me that even though the FMS could do it....that ATC could not legally instruct me to hold other than NW or SE. Rationale...once again because those directions correspond to the VOR radial that makes up the fix. ??!!

Now I'm pretty sure that ATC could instruct me to hold anyway they want me to hold...even at an unnamed fix...using the FMS.

The clearance format that I was looking for would be something like this: B767 cleared direct to the ATL300Rad/30Dme fix. Upon reaching the fix hold NW on the 325deg radial (course) from the fix, Std Turns, 10 Dme Legs, EFC 1830Z. Is something like this illegal? or Improper terminology?
 
I could see it if you were told to hold NE, NW, etc of a FIX, but since they designated a radial, I'm inclined to agree that NW/SE is the only way to hold on the 300 radial. If you held east or west, you wouldn't be on the radial anymore, but you could use the 30 DME fix as your point. So, yeah you could use the GPS to hold in any direction from a FIX but not a RADIAL.

Just my $.02 for what it's worth.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I could see it if you were told to hold NE, NW, etc of a FIX, but since they designated a radial, I'm inclined to agree that NW/SE is the only way to hold on the 300 radial. If you held east or west, you wouldn't be on the radial anymore, but you could use the 30 DME fix as your point. So, yeah you could use the GPS to hold in any direction from a FIX but not a RADIAL.

Just my $.02 for what it's worth.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's my beef....I was cleared to a fix. It's a point in space. It happened to be defined by a VOR Radial and DME. I was not instructed to fly the radial to the fix. So once I hit the fix...it is not clear to me what radial (course) I should hold on if only given "hold NW of that fix". I contend that I should have been given instructions clarifying the holding course. I do not think you can automatically assume that you will hold on the radial defining the intersection of this DME fix.
 
There was a related discussion about six weeks ago on another website, and that exact topic came up (indirectly) while discussing holding phraseology. Members involved in the discussion included a couple of ATC personnel (including Don Brown of AvWeb fame), and the general consensus was that while it is certainly possible (and permissable by ATC rules) to define a holding pattern in that manner, it would not be done in a real world situation for a variety of reasons, including the need to verify if the aircraft is capable of positive course guidance on the inbound leg (not practical for the controller's workload in any environment that requires holding instructions in the first place).

Here is a link to the ATC's rules regarding holding instructions: ATC 4.6

and the pertinent AIM chapter for pilots: AIM 5-3-7. Holding

Let me know if you want to see the complete discussion and I'll PM you a link or a snapshot of the thread.
 
[ QUOTE ]

That's my beef....I was cleared to a fix. It's a point in space. It happened to be defined by a VOR Radial and DME. I was not instructed to fly the radial to the fix. So once I hit the fix...it is not clear to me what radial (course) I should hold on if only given "hold NW of that fix". I contend that I should have been given instructions clarifying the holding course. I do not think you can automatically assume that you will hold on the radial defining the intersection of this DME fix.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say you had a valid beef. While I'm pretty sure that most pilots (and maybe controllers as well?) would assume that you should hold on the radial that defines the fix, the ATC book says:[ QUOTE ]
4-6-4. HOLDING INSTRUCTIONS

When issuing holding instructions, specify:

a. Direction of holding from the fix/waypoint.

b. Holding fix or waypoint.

NOTE-
The holding fix may be omitted if included at the beginning of the transmission as the clearance limit.

c. Radial, course, bearing, track, azimuth, airway, or route on which the aircraft is to hold.

d. Leg length in miles if DME or RNAV is to be used. Specify leg length in minutes if the pilot requests it or you consider it necessary.

e. Direction of holding pattern turns only if left turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or you consider it necessary.

PHRASEOLOGY-
HOLD (direction) OF (fix/waypoint) ON (specified radial, course, bearing, track, airway, azimuth(s), or route.)

If leg length is specified,

(number of minutes/miles) MINUTE/MILE LEG.

If direction of turn is specified,

LEFT/RIGHT TURNS.

[/ QUOTE ](bold added for emphasis) which reads to me that the instructions must include the direction of the hold (item a.) as well as the "Radial, course...on which the aircraft is to hold" (item c.).
 
SteveC,

Thanks for posting those links. I'm familiar with both sections and it reinforces my belief that the holding clearance I received was an incomplete one. The AIM states that the controller should give the radial, course, bearing, airway or route to hold at a given fix. I find it interesting that you ran into another topic on this discussion.

As far as practicality of the hold...it could be my own request and needs. Let's say for thunderstorm avoidance I want to proceed to a fix that is the ATL040/60DME. Due to storms east of that fix....I want to hold west of the fix on a 270degree course from the fix. I program the fix in the FMS, fly direct to it...and enter a holding pattern on a 270 degree course from the fix.

In the original clearance I posted, I don't think it's clear what course to hold on after reaching the assigned fix. If only cleared to hold NW, without a specified course/radial, I'd be inclined to hold on a 315 degree (halfway between N and W) course.

I posted this topic to see what others think of this clearance...and if it would cause you confusion concering the holding course upon reaching the fix. Thanks for all your input.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's my beef....I was cleared to a fix. It's a point in space. It happened to be defined by a VOR Radial and DME. I was not instructed to fly the radial to the fix. So once I hit the fix...it is not clear to me what radial (course) I should hold on if only given "hold NW of that fix". I contend that I should have been given instructions clarifying the holding course. I do not think you can automatically assume that you will hold on the radial defining the intersection of this DME fix.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say you had a valid beef. While I'm pretty sure that most pilots (and maybe controllers as well?) would assume that you should hold on the radial that defines the fix, the ATC book says:[ QUOTE ]
4-6-4. HOLDING INSTRUCTIONS

When issuing holding instructions, specify:

a. Direction of holding from the fix/waypoint.

b. Holding fix or waypoint.

NOTE-
The holding fix may be omitted if included at the beginning of the transmission as the clearance limit.

c. Radial, course, bearing, track, azimuth, airway, or route on which the aircraft is to hold.

d. Leg length in miles if DME or RNAV is to be used. Specify leg length in minutes if the pilot requests it or you consider it necessary.

e. Direction of holding pattern turns only if left turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or you consider it necessary.

PHRASEOLOGY-
HOLD (direction) OF (fix/waypoint) ON (specified radial, course, bearing, track, airway, azimuth(s), or route.)

If leg length is specified,

(number of minutes/miles) MINUTE/MILE LEG.

If direction of turn is specified,

LEFT/RIGHT TURNS.

[/ QUOTE ](bold added for emphasis) which reads to me that the instructions must include the direction of the hold (item a.) as well as the "Radial, course...on which the aircraft is to hold" (item c.).

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my point!

My frustration with the clearance was high....but I've learned never to argue with the checkpilot after you've passed your checkride.
 
Just the other day, I got holding instructions for the first time in a while. The hold fix was defined as the 090/20 (TOLCI was the name) of a VORTAC. The published holding is a hold east racetrack, 6 mile legs, along the 090 radial, right turns. However, this day, the airspace from 090/24 and east was restricted. So ATC gives me a "...proceed to TOLCI, hold north, 7 mile legs, left turns." Was one of those ones I actually had to quickly draw out, since the fix-to-fix computation showed me needing to make a left 40 degree turn in order to cross the fix notheastbound in about 1.5 minutes (an earlier clearance would've been nice, but oh well, you play the cards you're dealt). Was interesting, since I was TACAN only (INS and GPS had crapped out earlier in the flight) in IMC......back to old school. DME was somewhat useless, but 60 to 1 helped for the hold length mileage. All fun stuff.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Just the other day, I got holding instructions for the first time in a while. The hold fix was defined as the 090/20 (TOLCI was the name) of a VORTAC. The published holding is a hold east racetrack, 6 mile legs, along the 090 radial, right turns. However, this day, the airspace from 090/24 and east was restricted. So ATC gives me a "...proceed to TOLCI, hold north, 7 mile legs, left turns." Was one of those ones I actually had to quickly draw out, since the fix-to-fix computation showed me needing to make a left 40 degree turn in order to cross the fix notheastbound in about 1.5 minutes (an earlier clearance would've been nice, but oh well, you play the cards you're dealt). Was interesting, since I was TACAN only (INS and GPS had crapped out earlier in the flight) in IMC......back to old school. DME was somewhat useless, but 60 to 1 helped for the hold length mileage. All fun stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Without INS and GPS did you have any kind of positive course guidance on the inbound leg? How does the TACAN info get processed and displayed?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Without INS and GPS did you have any kind of positive course guidance on the inbound leg? How does the TACAN info get processed and displayed?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the weird thing about the hold instructions. They essentially wanted me holding north/south, but without INS, I needed to hold on the 20 DME arc, 5 mile legs. Weird way to hold, but the only way to have some form of guidance and still be north/south. TACAN is same as VOR so far as display goes (though TACAN aircraft can't hold at TACAN stations, unlike VOR aircraft can hold at a VOR/VORTAC). So picture the 20 DME arc to about 23 DME, left turns, with the southernmost point being TOLCI. What I did was slow to and set the fuel flows for 300 kts for holding. Being inside the arc, and southwest of the fix, I turned northeast on a TACAN fix-to-fix to TOLCI. Crossing TOLCI northeastbound, I was conveniently aligned to teardrop northeastbound for a left turn inbound to intercept the 20 DME arc southbound, to TOLCI. With about a 3 mile turn radius, I was able to hold from the 20 to 23 DME arc. For the 5 mile legs, using the 60 to 1 rule, I went with at 20 DME, there being 3 radials per mile or 15 radials for 5 miles, so that worked out to 5 miles being from the 090 radial, north to the 075 radial. So arcing south at 20 DME, left turn to intercept the 23 DME arc northbound; crossing about the 075 radial, left turn to intercept the 20 DME arc back southbound back to TOLCI. All the time, I had the HSI set to the 090 radial inbound, and used the tail of the RMI pointer (part of the HSI) for crossing the 075 R.

Was some fun mental math in IMC for about 10 minutes..........
 
Interesting stuff!

Using DME arcs turns it into a kidney bean shaped holding pattern, doesn't it?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting stuff!

Using DME arcs turns it into a kidney bean shaped holding pattern, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it does somewhat, though not too bad for a 5 mile leg......longer leg length and it's be much more apparent. With 5 miles, was still roughly a good north/south hold.....roughly..
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting stuff!

Using DME arcs turns it into a kidney bean shaped holding pattern, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

More interesting considering the type of aircraft we are talking about!
 
I've been told by ATC to "just circle around in that area" before. Granted it was an abnormal situation and we were the only crazies out there that night.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've been told by ATC to "just circle around in that area" before. Granted it was an abnormal situation and we were the only crazies out there that night.

[/ QUOTE ]

Random holding! Cool!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top