Holding Text Thoughts..

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meritflyer

Well-Known Member
Reading The Proficient Pilot by Barry Schiff tonite and read the chapter on holding. Kind of bothered me more or less on a few explanations. He mentions that there are a few ways other than the status quo to enter a hold.

He discusses that a pilot may enter the hold legally with the following method -

Once a holding clearance is issued and it falls within the parallel or teardop sections.. disregard what was learned in your IR days folks, there is a new (maybe old) method in town.

After crossing the fix, turn to the outbound heading, fly 1 minute, then turn right or left (doesnt matter which way) and intercept the inbound course. The pilot needs not worry about the unprotected side, as he states an aircraft traveling at 90 knots, has a 14 by 8 nautical mile radius to maneuver the aircraft into place.

Me personally? Maybe I am a little text book here but it kind of bothered me trying to re-teach holding. His reasoning? Most GA pilots arent proficient enough to fly teardrop or parallel procedures.
 
I agree with you. Holding is one of those things that has a learning curve. Otherwise it's fairly simple. I find that my students screw up when they refuse to draw the hold out (especially on NDB holds).
 
Technically he's correct and dumbs holding entry's down to bear basics. Obviously something not to teach Instrument students try to pass a checkride but maybe a good rule of thumb for a instrument pilot who rarely encounters a hold and isn't that hung up on being perfect and just wants to get the job done.
 
While he might be technically correct because the FAA hasnt said holding entry procedures are mandatory, I personally believe its sloppy technique.

A controller may also be in just the right mood to file a pilot deviation. I believe there was a few instances of this. I can try to find a reference.
 
meritflyer said:
While he might be technically correct because the FAA hasnt said holding entry procedures are mandatory, I personally believe its sloppy technique.

A controller may also be in just the right mood to file a pilot deviation. I believe there was a few instances of this. I can try to find a reference.
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This is the technique I've taught for years. As a matter of fact, I thought it was mine. I developed it from actual use in the real world. Somtimes I would get a last minute hold just as I am approaching the fix about to turn outbound for the approach, so there's no time for planning the entry. And being rushed to plan will eventually cause a mistake, so it is better to have a system that does not require a specific way to turn based on your crossing heading as it relates to your outbound holding heading.

Simply turn the closest direction to the outbound heading and you will always be within protected airspace - and no controller is watching which way you turn. He is only concerned that you stay within protected airspace. The only way you would exceed your protected airspace is if you wait too long to start the turn and/or you make a slow, slow turn, and that would get you out of airspace even if you followed AIM recommended procedure.
 
nosehair said:
Simply turn the closest direction to the outbound heading and you will always be within protected airspace - and no controller is watching which way you turn. He is only concerned that you stay within protected airspace. The only way you would exceed your protected airspace is if you wait too long to start the turn and/or you make a slow, slow turn, and that would get you out of airspace even if you followed AIM recommended procedure.
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Being on the "unprotected" side is misunderstood. Like I mentioned in my example, doing 90 knots, a pilot is assured a 14 by 8 NM area of "protected" airspace to get the aircraft established in the hold.

I can see people's reasoning for discussing the "unprotected" side of the hold but the unprotected side is actually quite protected to an extent.
 
I agree. It makes students a lot harder to imagine the hold if they don't draw it out. My instructor taught me an easy way to draw holds and where you may be coming from to easily visualize the way to enter the hold and what it will actually look like.
 
It is true that you get some protected airspace on the non-holding side, but I don't think that is supposed to be taken advantage of. Yeah at 90 kts you'd proabbly be perfectly safe, but if that is the case, why bother holding on the correct side at all?
 
SteveC said:
Here is a link to the FAA's Holding Pattern Criteria, 7130.3A. Feel free to point out where you find your "14 by 8 NM figure" in there.

:insane:

(edit to add) By the way, why do you say "at 90 knots you have 14 by 8 NM"? If your statement were true, wouldn't you have 14 x 8 no matter what speed you were flying?
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Is radius constant with every speed? An aircraft turning standard rate at 230 knots is going to have a much larger radius, eh?

My reference is The Proficient Pilot, p.234. He discusses the 14 by 8 figure hence how this thread got started.
 
meritflyer said:
Is radius constant with every speed? An aircraft turning standard rate at 230 knots is going to have a much larger radius, eh?
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I understand that the aircraft's turning radius is greater. How does that make a difference in the size of the protected area?

My reference is The Proficient Pilot, p.234. He discusses the 14 by 8 figure hence how this thread got started.
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Which source, yours or mine, do you think is more accurate?
 
meritflyer said:
14 by 8 figure
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Holding patterns vary in size, depending on altitude, the category of aircraft intended to use it, and the distance to the fix. It should almost never be smaller than this one, though:

holding.png
 
SteveC said:
I don't have access. Can you be any more specific? What did they say and how did they say it?
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Nope, I cant be more specific. The AIM isnt regulatory in nature until there is an accident or some type of unsafe action. Which method does the AIM endorse? The odd Schiff method or the standard?

I suggest you buy or borrow the King DVD. Plus, Martha is hot.
 
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