Holding Procedures

Maximilian_Jenius

Maximilian_Jenius

Super User
So I'm still studying for my Instrument rating and I have a question?

"Cessna 743 November, hold south-east of the Phoenix VOR on the 125 degree radial at 9,000 feet. Expect further clearance in 10 minutes." You are approaching the Phoenix VOR with a heading of 095 degrees tracking the 271 degree radial . What type of hold will you perform?"

My guess is a Parallel Entry. What are your guesses also anyone want to futher explain holds to me in detail?
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
So I'm still studying for my Instrument rating and I have a question?

"Cessna 743 November, hold south-east of the Phoenix VOR on the 125 degree radial at 9,000 feet. Expect further clearance in 10 minutes." You are approaching the Phoenix VOR with a heading of 095 degrees tracking the 271 degree radial . What type of hold will you perform?"

My guess is a Parallel Entry. What are your guesses also anyone want to futher explain holds to me in detail?
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Have your instructor teach you the "thumb technique". Works EVERY time. After you learn it, you wont even need your thumbs, you can do it in your head! :nana2:
 
EFC in ten minutes...hmmm....I suggest you practice some slow flight enroute....

And ditto on the thumb technique....WAY more practical than trying to draw the hold or hold a pencil up to the DG in flight....after doing it a few times you can see the hold in your head when it's give to you....
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
Have your instructor teach you the "thumb technique". Works EVERY time. After you learn it, you wont even need your thumbs, you can do it in your head! :nana2:
Click to expand...

Definately will do. But I'm not actually flying right now. I'm taking college courses (I'ma flight major). I'm going to Skymates and thats where I will fly but first I'm wanting to A.) Get college credit and at least have my Instrument and Commerical written out of the way first.
 
skyhawk39 said:
EFC in ten minutes...hmmm....I suggest you practice some slow flight enroute....
Click to expand...

Wrote the question down wrong it was actually 5 mins. does that make a diff? Is it still a teardrop?

"Cessna 743 November, hold south-east of the Phoenix VOR on the 125 degree radial at 9,000 feet. Expect further clearance in 5 minutes." You are approaching the Phoenix VOR with a heading of 095 degrees tracking the 271 degree radial . What type of hold will you perform?"
 
It's still a teardrop, but 9 times out of 10 (well, 10 out of 10 for me), the EFC is issued like "Except further clearance 2216, time now 2200"
 
Any way to describe the "thumb technique" here? I don't know that one and holding entries are always a concern to me :-) I think sometimes I overthink problem and confuse myself...
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Wrote the question down wrong it was actually 5 mins. does that make a diff? Is it still a teardrop?
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Whoa! Back up. Nice to have the right answer for the test, but this question suggests that you really don't understand holds to begin with.

Do you know =why= the AIM-preferred entry is parallel and why the number of minutes until you might get another instruction doesn't matter?

Don't even think about tricks where you stick your thumb somewhere until you do.
 
John2375 said:
Any way to describe the "thumb technique" here? I don't know that one and holding entries are always a concern to me :-) I think sometimes I overthink problem and confuse myself...
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I'm sure someone will describe it. I avoid the method myself. Not that it's bad, but the DG-based tricks confuse me - I had two CFIIs each of whom insisted that a certain trick had to be done his way - the result was that I can't keep them straight.

Contrary to skyhawk's post, I do draw the hold. I like to write down the holding clearance and I use a graphic shorthand that lets me draw the hold as quickly as I can write it down any other way. For me, being able to visualize the hold and my position relative to it is all I need.

Here's "hold southwest of the VOR on the 220 degree radial at 8,000 feet. Left turns. Expect further clearance at 0000 Zulu" The arrow in the upper left is my airplane approaching the fix.

http://www.midlifeflight.us/posted/draw_hold.gif

In terms of "overthinking" there is also a simple rule that escapes a lot of people. The first turn upon reaching the fix will always be outbound or within 30 degrees of outbound.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Whoa! Back up. Nice to have the right answer for the test, but this question suggests that you really don't understand holds to begin with.

Do you know =why= the AIM-preferred entry is parallel and why the number of minutes until you might get another instruction doesn't matter?

Don't even think about tricks where you stick your thumb somewhere until you do.
Click to expand...

Eh...I don't. I think it's kinda hard to understand holding if your not learning book work and flying at the sametime. Not sure if you caught my previous post but I'm wanting to have my FAA test done before attending Skymates in the fall or early next year. Though i do think it is important to at least have an understanding of IFR procedures before learnign to fly IFR which is one purpose of asking the question.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Eh...I don't. I think it's kinda hard to understand holding if your not learning book work and flying at the sametime.
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I don't agree. IFR is much more "headwork" intensive than flight intensive. I think that knowing what a hold is, what it's for, and what you are supposed to do when confronted with one something an instrument student needs to understand before getting even close to trying it in an airplane.

Though I do think it is important to at least have an understanding of IFR procedures before learning to fly IFR which is one purpose of asking the question
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I agree. That's exactly my point. Problem is that, as you say, you ended up with an answer but without understanding the procedure. Although I think that a short one-on-one session is the best way to learn holds, any book work explaining them is preferable to guessing knowledge test answers.

BTW, I just re-read this before hitting the "submit" button. It is not meant to be as pompous as it reads. ;)
 
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