holding pattern on ILS

S

STS-41B

Well-Known Member
I'm having a complete memory lapse from my IFR training.
For example, Long Beach ILS 30; it has a holding pattern on the ILS.
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1212/00236IL30.PDF

The only time I ever shot that ILS, ATC brought me inside of if and cleared me for the approach.
However.. if you're outside and coming in, do you have to do the holding pattern once around automatically or only if they tell you, or ???
 
nopt.jpg
 
That really doesn't help him. That's if he was cleared to midds and then the approach he doesn't need to do the PT. If you are vectored to final you don't need to do the PT. If you were cleared to becca and they said cleared for the approach I would do the PT. I would however clarify with them if you were cleared to becca if they wanted a PT.

AIM 5-4-9 will help clarify the PT's for you
 
What's snotty about it? I just pointed out the No PT charting since he said he didn't remember how it worked. Jeesh.

That's how I read "outside coming in"... not sure how else to read it.

If vectored to intercept the localizer then no PT. If arriving from outside coming in via MIDDS, then no PT.

Any other way in you'll fly the hold for course reversal.
 
STS-41B said:
I'm having a complete memory lapse from my IFR training.
For example, Long Beach ILS 30; it has a holding pattern on the ILS.
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1212/00236IL30.PDF

The only time I ever shot that ILS, ATC brought me inside of if and cleared me for the approach.
However.. if you're outside and coming in, do you have to do the holding pattern once around automatically or only if they tell you, or ???
Click to expand...

Depends if they clear you for the "full procedure," or if you are getting radar vectors (more common).

1) Radar vectors (most common), they will line you up with the Localizer. Not PT/Hold. Hearing "Intercept LOC" = dead giveaway.
2) Full procedure at CADIP as the IAF, fly there, establish outbound, course reversal (the depicted hold in lieu of PT), and then inbound.
3) From MGM as the IAF, you don't do the course reversal (NoPT)

#2 probably exists because there are victor airways that would take you to BECCA, which would let you do the full procedure in a non-radar environment. Pretty rare you won't get radar vectors though unless you asked.

My instrument flying is quite rusty though, so please anyone, correct anything I have wrong.
 
STS-41B

Lost COMMs....

If you were inbound and cleared to SLI and last assigned altitude was saaayyy 5000, you would fly the 200R off SLI to BECCA (IAF) , and use the hold to descend for the approach.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Depends if they clear you for the "full procedure," or if you are getting radar vectors (more common).

My instrument flying is quite rusty though, so please anyone, correct anything I have wrong.
Click to expand...


You'e absolutely right, but just be aware that there is no such term as "full procedure" in ATC's official phraseology. A lot of controllers seem to use this (which is certainly not a bad idea), but I've been involved in investigating some instances where no such clearance was given and crews erroneously assumed that they were to proceed directly inbound after hitting a fix like BECCA in a non-radar environment (instead of executing the hold-in-lieu/PT).

The acronym S.H.A.R.P. is a good reminder of the different ways to execute an IAP:

S - Straight-In (e.g., NoPT verbiage)
H - Holding Pattern in lieu of a PT
A - Arc
R - Radar Vectors
p - Procedure Turn

If you don't hear "vectors," it's a good red flag.
 
Hey, BTW, this was not a stupid question AT ALL. Glad it was asked.

Many years ago in kindergarten, the transition from enroute to approach was one of the hardest things for me to get a grasp of. Mostly, I would guess, because it isn't explained anywhere in much detail, and there isn't a chapter in any of the books that covers it. CFIs don't spend much time on it, since you always seem to have radar in training...
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Depends if they clear you for the "full procedure," or if you are getting radar vectors (more common).

1) Radar vectors (most common), they will line you up with the Localizer. Not PT/Hold. Hearing "Intercept LOC" = dead giveaway.
2) Full procedure at CADIP as the IAF, fly there, establish outbound, course reversal (the depicted hold in lieu of PT), and then inbound.
3) From MGM as the IAF, you don't do the course reversal (NoPT)

#2 probably exists because there are victor airways that would take you to BECCA, which would let you do the full procedure in a non-radar environment. Pretty rare you won't get radar vectors though unless you asked.

My instrument flying is quite rusty though, so please anyone, correct anything I have wrong.
Click to expand...

What's CADIP and MGM?
 
All good info. Practically speaking, however:

Ask the controller.

It's been explained to me that it is a pain for a controller to clear you for an approach, expect you to fly straight in from the fix on the approach, and then have to vector other traffic out of the way because you unexpectedly, at least to ATC, flew the holding pattern. It's not really a gray area, per se, but a little proactive communication goes a long way.
 
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