Holding entry question

troopernflight

Well-Known Member
Here's the question as stated in the Jeppesen Instrument Commercial manual: Inbound to the PJG VORTAC on a magnetic heading of 060 degrees you receive the following clearance: "...cleared to the PJG VORTAC, hold south of the VOR on the 160 radial, left turns..." Which holding pattern entry should you use?

I was thinking Direct entry. The book says Parallel entry is correct. Ok, my holding course is 340 degrees inbound, left turns. Picturing the imaginary line 110 degrees perpendicular from my holding course would be 090 and 270 degrees. (After drawing this out) On a heading of 060 degrees would put my entry on the Direct entry sector. I should just be able to turn left upon reaching the VOR and make my 1st 180 to join the outbound leg, correct? Can someone please put this in terms I can understand.
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
the Holding radial is the direction your aircraft will be coming from on the inbound leg. so the inbound heading will be the opposite of the instructed radial. Holding on the 160 radial would mean an inbound heading of 340

Hope this helps...



(Yes this is the crappiest drawing in the world :) )
Better than I can do
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Here's the question as stated in the Jeppesen Instrument Commercial manual: Inbound to the PJG VORTAC on a magnetic heading of 060 degrees you receive the following clearance: "...cleared to the PJG VORTAC, hold south of the VOR on the 160 radial, left turns..." Which holding pattern entry should you use?

I was thinking Direct entry. The book says Parallel entry is correct. Ok, my holding course is 340 degrees inbound, left turns. Picturing the imaginary line 110 degrees perpendicular from my holding course would be 090 and 270 degrees. (After drawing this out) On a heading of 060 degrees would put my entry on the Direct entry sector. I should just be able to turn left upon reaching the VOR and make my 1st 180 to join the outbound leg, correct? Can someone please put this in terms I can understand.
Majority's drawing is correct. Inbound on a 60° heading, a direct entry would be a left 260° turn. A parallel entry is a right 100° turn. Which makes more sense to you?

If it were =right= turns in the hold, direct would be better, but not for left turns in this scenario.
 

troopernflight

Well-Known Member
I think I figured out what the problem is. The standard circuit would be right turns. This is left turns. Therefore, the little guidance diagram that they provide in the book with be a mirror image of what they show. Though I do think it is close enough to where direct entry might be appropriate. What is it, when you are within 5 degrees either way that you can just pick your entry type?
 

Attachments

wrxpilot

New Member
It's on the verge of being a direct entry (by 20 degrees), but is technically a parallel. In the real world, if you treated it like a direct entry you'd be fine. But the FAA/examiners would be looking for a parallel.

I've got a really good way of figuring out hold entries that is way easier than all the crazy stuff that the FAA/Jepp has. If you want it, PM me and I'll email it to you.
 

troopernflight

Well-Known Member
Majority's drawing is correct. Inbound on a 60° heading, a direct entry would be a left 260° turn. A parallel entry is a right 100° turn. Which makes more sense to you?

If it were =right= turns in the hold, direct would be better, but not for left turns in this scenario.
Yup, definitely makes sense now. Should be fun when I actually have to start practicing this. Thanks for the help everyone.
 

Itchy

Well-Known Member
As long as you stay in the protected side, the entry is not so important.

You may get a check airman /examiner that feels differently however.
 

majorityof1

New Member
I think I figured out what the problem is. The standard circuit would be right turns. This is left turns. Therefore, the little guidance diagram that they provide in the book with be a mirror image of what they show. Though I do think it is close enough to where direct entry might be appropriate. What is it, when you are within 5 degrees either way that you can just pick your entry type?

Ok, this may be muddying the waters, but here goes... you know that the holding pattern is broken up into 70 degree (teardrop) 110 Degree (parellel) and 180 degree (direct) segments.

So, the 160 radial plus 70 degrees is the 230 radial. The 230 radial, in this case, is the separating point between direct and parellel entries. The reciprocal of 230 is 050. Since you are travelling 060 you are on the parellel side.

There is a rule of thumb, that may be published (hopefully someone smarter than me will dig it up), that if you are with in plus or minus five degrees you can choose between the two entries.

Then again there is always this paragraph: While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to enter the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop, and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA.

I would say, as long as you understand why the book got their answer and you were purposefully using a direct entry for a specific reason, you are fine.
 

minitour

New Member
Cross the fix then turn outbound. Then decide how you need to turn to stay on the protected side when you turn around. Works every time.

-mini
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Yup, definitely makes sense now. Should be fun when I actually have to start practicing this. Thanks for the help everyone.
FWIW, I think there's a problem with the way holds are generally taught. There's too much focus on the AIM diagram and not enough on drawings like majority's where, even without perfection, it's pretty obvious which way to turn for the best entry.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
I have a little thing I do with my hand and the heading indicator that makes figuring it out real easy. Kinda hard to explain on the interwebs though.
 

Maurus

The Great Gazoo
All I do is draw my hold and my location. I then determine where my location will be *after* crossing the fix and determine which entry is easiest. By doing that you eliminate that confusing diagonal line.
 

fish314

Well-Known Member
FWIW, I think there's a problem with the way holds are generally taught. There's too much focus on the AIM diagram and not enough on drawings like majority's where, even without perfection, it's pretty obvious which way to turn for the best entry.
Speaking of different methods to teach holding, the AF teaches a WHOLE different method.

Within 70 degrees of the inbound heading, turn in the holding direction (basically a direct entry). Not in that cone, turn the shortest direction outbound (which still can result in either a direct entry or a parallel entry, depending on your heading).

They also teach teardrops, but say that they are not mandatory. Maximum teardrop course should be 45 degrees off of the reciprocal of the inbound course, and you should only teardrop if your heading is within 45 degrees of the selected teardrop course.

Long story short is that it winds up looking similar to the AIM method of hold entry, but not exactly the same. Some of those lines can wind up being a few degrees off of what AIM teaches. Still seems to work in US Airspace, though. Never heard of an ATC questioning anyones holding entry turn.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Long story short is that it winds up looking similar to the AIM method of hold entry, but not exactly the same. Some of those lines can wind up being a few degrees off of what AIM teaches. Still seems to work in US Airspace, though. Never heard of an ATC questioning anyones holding entry turn.
There are three truths here. One is that the AIM teachings are recommended, not required. The second is that ATC doesn't care so long as you don't infringe on the airspace they need. The third is that, once you get rid of thinking that the 70° cut is some kind of mystical number, the generally recommended hold entries simply make sense (at least as much sense as any other method).

When I teach holds, the first thing I do is tell the student to forget the AIM, except for a general description of what direct, parallel, and teardrop entries are. Then I draw a holding pattern on the board and place an airplane in different places approaching the hold and ask which of the three makes the most sense. The student invariably picks the "right" one within a couple of degrees.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
I brief my holds something like this: 'Holding south on the 160 radial, left turns. That means parallel entry -- but I'm going to do a Direct anyway.' or 'But I'm going to do a Teardrop anyway.'
 

cfii2007

New Member
Fly direct to the fix.....figure out the inbound and outbound courses....use the thumb/DG method to determine the entry type.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
Cross the fix and turn outbound ...

-mini
I'm liking this one more and more every time I read it. It eliminates the teardrop entry, but seriously, anything that can be done as a teardrop can be just as easy when done as a parallel. And this method seems butt-easy. Too bad I don't have any instrument students this semester.
 

minitour

New Member
I'm liking this one more and more every time I read it. It eliminates the teardrop entry, but seriously, anything that can be done as a teardrop can be just as easy when done as a parallel. And this method seems butt-easy. Too bad I don't have any instrument students this semester.
It doesn't necessarily eliminate the teardrop. Just visualize where you're at so you can decide how much to turn outbound.

I can't tell you how many instrument students 'get it' when you just tell them "cross the fix and turn outbound".

-mini
 
Top