Hold It !

[Dazzler]

During my studies for the CFII, I came across this nifty page all about holding patterns - thought I'd share

http://stoenworks.com/Hold it.html

 

[surreal1221]

Silly firewall is telling me it has "games." I'll have to wait til I get home for this one.

 

[Dazzler]

Silly firewall is telling me it has "games." I'll have to wait til I get home for this one.

Well that's understandable - holds are just games that ATC play with us pilots anyway

 

[killbilly]

Silly firewall is telling me it has "games." I'll have to wait til I get home for this one.

The site he's referring to has a bunch of tutorials on GA as well as flying in sims, and he makes a couple of game references in there, which is probably why.

That site is ALSO linked off the X-plane forums.

Note: The manual that comes with X-plane effin' sucks....

 

[flyguy]

Slightly off topic, but here's a question I've been pondering about holds lately. On a VOR hold with a parellel entry, after crossing the VOR initially, why not just track outbound for one min, then turn around on the holding side and fly direct to the VOR? Of course you can't do that on an intersection hold without GPS or RNAV, but for a VOR or NDB, is there any real reason why you'd have to re-intercept the inbound course on the entry?

And yes I know that hold entries are not regulatory anyway, but I was just wondering if anyone uses this technique, and how a DPE or FAA inspector might feel about it on a checkride.

 

[meritflyer]

Hold entry procedures are not mandatory however, I have heard that a controller may file a deviation should one to decide to get creative.

 

[Dazzler]

On a VOR hold with a parellel entry, after crossing the VOR initially, why not just track outbound for one min, then turn around on the holding side and fly direct to the VOR?

Because you need to establish yourself on the inbound course to calculate your wind correction angle, so you can use it on the outbound course (triple the WCA)

 

[flyguy]

Because you need to establish yourself on the inbound course to calculate your wind correction angle, so you can use it on the outbound course (triple the WCA)

Why can't I do that on the second trip around the hold? On a parellel entry, you can't time for one min anyway as you will intercept closer to the VOR than you normally would, and if you actually manage to intercept the inbound course without S-turning before you get to the VOR, you may only have a few moments before its time to turn outbound. Much better to figure out wind corretion the next time around when we have the whole inbound leg to work with.

 

[flyguy]

.....Or, Here's an even better idea. While tracking outbound after initially crossing the VOR, find your WCA and use that same WCA on your outbound leg.

 

[Dazzler]

.....Or, Here's an even better idea. While tracking outbound after initially crossing the VOR, find your WCA and use that same WCA on your outbound leg.

I don't know - you want to track some course to the holding fix, so why not make it the inbound course? You certainly don't want to "home" to the station otherwise you'll never really know where you are in the hold.

I guess it's for situational awareness. There's no right or wrong way, just recommendation, like you mentioned in your original post anyway.

 

[flyguy]

You wouldn't have to home. As soon as you turn around, twist up a direct course and track that to the VOR. It becomes a direct entry at that point. As for situational awareness, my suggestion would allow you to know your position in respect to the VOR at all times. Wheras on a traditional parellel entry, while turning inbound you don't know exactly where you are, and you are just waiting for the needle to start moving cause if you blink your eyes it'll flip like a windshield wiper and you'll S-Turn your way all the way to the VOR. My suggestion is track outbound for one minute, then hang a U-turn as you normally would, but go direct to the VOR instead of killing yourself trying to intercept the inbound course less than 2 miles from the VOR. I am just wondering if anyone else has heard of, or does this type of entry. I hesitate to teach it to my students because I'm not sure how an examiner would feel about it on a checkride, but in real life I use it as it is much easier and more precise than a traditional parellel entry.

 

[Turbo Mcfloat]

I think that going direct to the VOR during a parallel entry turn would cause your racetrack pattern to be off. After crossing the VOR you would have in the neighborhood of 225 degrees to turn to your outbound heading. The turns are supposed to be 1 minute in duration. It's not regulatory as mentioned above and I have spoken to a DE about holding a couple days ago. He said that as long as the person stayed within protected airspace he wouldn't bust him. He'd talk to the guy about it but that's it. He then said for an ATP checkride that wouldn't float due to the higher standards expected.
Another issue going direct to a VOR during this turn would be the possibility of turning to the wrong outbound heading. It's one more thing to remember to re-check the approach plate for inbound and outbound headings and retuning the correct radial in the OBS while making the turn. I like everything to be set-up both in the cockpit and my head beforehand so I don't forget anything. The 6 T's do that though.

 

[flyguy]

Thank you for answering my question about how it might work on a checkride.

However, I'm not sure you guys understand the procedure I'm talking about. I'll give you an example. Feel free to draw it out if you don't believe me. Lets say you are instructed to hold North on the 360 radial of the XYZ VOR with right turns. You determine that your inbound course in the hold will be 180, your outbound heading will be 360, and from your current position it will be a parellel entry. Now what I would do is cross the VOR, track outbound on the 360 radial for 1 min and note the wind correction angle, then turn left to roughtly 150, twist up a direct course to the VOR. Kind of a "reverse teardrop" if you will. Then after crossing the VOR second time, turn to 360 + or - the wind correction I used when I tracked outbound. Tada, you're in the hold. No homing, no funky racetracks, and best of all, no S-Turns though the inbound course. It works beautifully. Try it VFR sometime and tell me it dosn't work better than a regular parellel entry. I understand the concern about not being an exact 180 degree turn, and therefore not being one minute long, but how would that be any different than a direct entry, or a teardrop for that matter? And as long as you start your outbound time abeam the VOR and the outbound leg is one minute, who cares how long the first couple turns take? The first turn of a parellel entry certainly is not going to be exactly one minute.

Now, I do have a theory why this method is not recommended by the FAA. This procedure will not work on an intersection hold, unless you are using RNAV or GPS, as otherwise you would have to be on the inbound course to identify the holding fix. I don't think the FAA wants to teach a different procedure for parellel entires that only work on a VOR or NDB hold. The traditional parellel entry will work on any hold so its probably just a matter of simplicity.

 

[Nick]

"reverse teardrop"

That's how it ends up half the time anyway in a plane with a slow groundspeed in a strong crosswind.

I like the way you suggest because it is simple.

 

[fish314]

I think you nailed the reason there in your last paragraph, flyguy. I think it is probably perfectly okay to do it that way, but because it doesn't work in every scenario the FAA teaches it the way they do for simplicity's sake. After all, at some point we were all students, and at some point this stuff was difficult for all of us, no matter how skilled we may have become.

As an instructor, I try to teach as many techniques that work "always" as I can. I think it's the same theory. Teach what works every time, even if there are some scenarios where a different technique works better, or as well.