Hold as published

I've been given a hold before while enroute that was the miss approach hold for an ILS procedure at a (large) airport underneath us. The controller (I *think* it was ZDC but it may have been Potomac) gave the clearance as "hold at XXXXX... it's the missed approach hold on the ILSXX at XXX." We were far enough away that it wasn't too much of a problem to go find the plate and get the info. We also had to ask for a clearance to that fix because it wasn't on the airway.
 
Toobdrvr said:
Hmm, keep that controller happy, or keep my certificates/ job/ QOL intact...

Tough decision!
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Getting a tongue lashing from one of my less-than-sympathetic colleagues because you were not 100% clear about a clearance is a lot less hazardous to your career than doing something unexpected like making the wrong direction of turn in a hold because you were confused. I can think of a several notorious accidents that could have been avoided if the pilots had not been afraid to speak up about a clearance or unexpected condition that a controller could have helped avert if they had all the information.
 
Been there.

If I'm en-route the hold needs to be on the en-route chart (Low Alt) It's not my job to check the high altitude chart and all the approach plates, STARS and SIDs for every airport within 25 miles. ATC got all pissy with me because I said there wasn't a published hold at Pomona and wouldn't give me directions. Simply refused my request for detailed holding, I'm in IMC.

To make it worse 2 minutes earlier Pomona wasn't even on my route of flight. I was cleared PDZ V186 VNY...

I held on the inbound radial, right turn, 1 minute legs.
 
fholbert said:
Been there.

If I'm en-route the hold needs to be on the en-route chart (Low Alt) It's not my job to check the high altitude chart and all the approach plates, STARS and SIDs for every airport within 25 miles. ATC got all pissy with me because I said there wasn't a published hold at Pomona and wouldn't give me directions. Simply refused my request for detailed holding, I'm in IMC.

To make it worse 2 minutes earlier Pomona wasn't even on my route of flight. I was cleared PDZ V186 VNY...

I held on the inbound radial, right turn, 1 minute legs.
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I'd ask the controller for a phone number to call, or at least make the practice known to my CP so he can make that phone call.

ATC can eat a dick if they're going to increase workloads on me in IMC.
 
jtrain609 said:
First, regarding the bolded portion, it's because we've been chewed out enough on frequency by controllers that some folks don't want to anger a controller. I get chewed out by ATL controllers on a fairly frequent basis, seemingly because they're angry that I don't know some bit of local knowledge because I never go there, knowledge which they assume I should know.
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Now is that the tower, approach, or the center?
 
Here we rarely ever do any holding ourselves. When it gets to the point that we need to hold for whatever reason, we just tell our feeder facilities to go in a hold. Any traffic already in our airspace gets vectored around. My area does not have a single "published hold" unless you count the stuff on the approach charts, which never gets used because they're all in conflict with traffic flows. If the delay will be significant, then we'll improvise a holding pattern in an out of the way spot.
 
Vector4Food said:
Because that's any controllers intention.
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Whether intentional or not, it absolutely happens sometimes, and we (as pilots) can't be afraid of just saying "unable" if we have our hands full.

The implication in this thread was that certain ATC may intentionally give clearances to fixes the pilot is probably not going to have in front of him- for instance, transitioning from a jet route to an approach and being given a low fix.
 
NewYorkophile said:
Whether intentional or not, it absolutely happens sometimes, and we (as pilots) can't be afraid of just saying "unable" if we have our hands full.

The implication in this thread was that certain ATC may intentionally give clearances to fixes the pilot is probably not going to have in front of him- for instance, transitioning from a jet route to an approach and being given a low fix.
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If a controller is willingly adding workload to a crew when an alternate safe procedure exists, then that controller needs "training"
 
N90-EWR said:
More often than not, it is the pilots that add extra unnecessary workload to ATC.
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Agreed. Ride reports are the first thing that come to my mind. When I say, "light chop, all altitudes" and then get a response, "What about lower?" it drives me bonkers. All altitudes means all altitudes. If we're busy and there is moderate to severe out there then we'll make sure we get you away from it but if it's light chop then sometimes you just have to deal with it. Yeah, sometimes we may be exaggerating because FL330 has been reported the best ride but when you have 20 aircraft on frequency, not everyone can be at 33.
 
spades9048 said:
Agreed. Ride reports are the first thing that come to my mind. When I say, "light chop, all altitudes" and then get a response, "What about lower?" it drives me bonkers. All altitudes means all altitudes. If we're busy and there is moderate to severe out there then we'll make sure we get you away from it but if it's light chop then sometimes you just have to deal with it. Yeah, sometimes we may be exaggerating because FL330 has been reported the best ride but when you have 20 aircraft on frequency, not everyone can be at 33.
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Another one that drives me nuts is when after calling the traffic they're following on final, they go "We got him on the fishfinder"! I wish I could reply: "Roger, caution wake turbulence, follow the big fish, cleared visual approach RWY4R"
 
N90-EWR said:
Another one that drives me nuts is when after calling the traffic they're following on final, they go "We got him on the fishfinder"! I wish I could reply: "Roger, caution wake turbulence, follow the big fish, cleared visual approach RWY4R"
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You can! We work for a kinder, gentler FAA now. Under Just Culture, they would have to evaluate what systemic issues caused you to be sarcastic on the radio. Then you would do a CBI.
 
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