Hold as published

[MidlifeFlyer]

From a controller standpoint, would it be proper to instruct a pilot to "hold as published" when the pilot might have no reason to be looking at the chart on which it is published?

As an example, a pilot is flying inbound to an airport. Due to traffic, you need the pilot to hold and the hold you want to use is a missed approach hold published on an approach to a different airport. The hold is not published on the en route chart.

Would you instruct simply (a) "hold as published," (b) identify the chart on which the hold is published, or just (c) give the full holding instruction?

I'm curious because I have head stories of pilots who have received (a) to their complete confusion and was wondering about it.

 

[Inverted25]

The only time I would expect hold as published is if I am on a airway with a published hold on it or on a approach with a published hold as the procedure turn. Any other time if I am giving hold as published I will be asking as published where?

 

[Toobdrvr]

If it's not right in front of me, I usually ask for the fix, radial, and any non-standard details (turns, leg length, etc).

I don't wanna blow it trying to look it up...

 

[Polar742]

I've had a couple instances overseas of what you've described. The odd thing in that instance going into HKG, the direction of the hold is altitude based, and two completely different directions.

However, what I've seen at least once in the states is the following: the depicted fix is both enroute and an IAF. Both charts have different holds, so one along the airway then another aligning for the approach. Naturally perpendicular to each other, and in different quadrants.

However, this was years ago. If I find a similar example, I'll post it for you.

I'm not sure how controllers working that airspace are educated on it, but maybe an extra word could solve all problems (hold as published on Victor 192 at Dergg vs. Hold at Dergg as published)

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

Our area loves to say "hold as published," and it's taught to the trainees religiously. If there's a hold anywhere in a sector's airpsace, be it on an approach, arrival, or en-route chart, it's considered the official hold for the whole sector. Sadly, I can only do so much to re-train.

 

[Itchy]

I've never had that happen to me, but if it did, I would come back with a "describe it for me" (snarky maybe) if I had any confusion at all on what they wanted me to do.

 

[spades9048]

If it's not on their arrival or approach then you shouldn't tell them to hold as published. What is wrong with hold north, right turns, standard legs?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Our area loves to say "hold as published," and it's taught to the trainees religiously. If there's a hold anywhere in a sector's airpsace, be it on an approach, arrival, or en-route chart, it's considered the official hold for the whole sector. Sadly, I can only do so much to re-train.

That's an example of what I'm interested in. My question was aimed as whether it's one of those things that should be covered in training or an IPC. I would have the same response as @Toobdrvr and @Itchy and others — if it wasn't in front of me, ask — but I know that asking for clarification in one of those things that pilots sometimes hesitate about. Sounds like I might toss one of those into an IPC and see what happens Figure even if it's on a different approach chart to the same familiar airport, it might generate at least a "huh?" and momentary distraction.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

It might be of some use as a gotcha or distraction in training or on an IPC, but I don't think it has much place in the actual IFR environment. It's really a crutch for controllers who are a little unsure of holding phraseology, in my opinion.

 

[FM_Weasel]

Given a reasonable amount of notice, I'd expect pilots to find published holding on IFR En Route charts. But there's no way I would expect them to find whatever random approach plate a Published Missed fix is charted on.

An exception would be with our local navy training aircraft who ask for specific approaches but want to hold prior to commencing the full procedure. I know they have the plate in front of them.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Our area loves to say "hold as published," and it's taught to the trainees religiously. If there's a hold anywhere in a sector's airpsace, be it on an approach, arrival, or en-route chart, it's considered the official hold for the whole sector. Sadly, I can only do so much to re-train.

"Buzzsaw 5155, uh, give us a heading while we look that up, please -sound similar to rustling of Airway Manual pages-"

 

[scott_l]

That's an example of what I'm interested in. My question was aimed as whether it's one of those things that should be covered in training or an IPC. I would have the same response as @Toobdrvr and @Itchy and others — if it wasn't in front of me, ask — but I know that asking for clarification in one of those things that pilots sometimes hesitate about. Sounds like I might toss one of those into an IPC and see what happens Figure even if it's on a different approach chart to the same familiar airport, it might generate at least a "huh?" and momentary distraction.

I had a student fail an instrument stage check because he was told to hold as published at a fix on the airway he filed for the xc. Freaking out because there was no published hold on the low enroute chart he flew past it. When he flew past it a minute he just turned around and started holding on the airway. The published hold was actually the missed approach hold from an approach into his departure airport. Needless to say it left us both very frustrated.

 

[FM_Weasel]

I'm thinking treating IAP depicted holds as "published" is a stretch anyway, by our manual. Still, if holding instructions are omitted and the pilot needs them, or they appear incomplete, the pilot should request full holding instructions.

FAA JO7110.65U

4−6−1. CLEARANCE TO HOLDING FIX

b. Holding instructions.
2. When the pattern is charted, you may omit all
holding instructions except the charted holding
direction and the statement “as published.” Always
issue complete holding instructions when the pilot
requests them.

NOTE−
The most generally used holding patterns are depicted on
U.S. Government or commercially produced low/high
altitude en route, area, and STAR Charts.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Could just ask the pilot if they have the chart in question, and if they don't, give them the full holding clearance to the waypoint?

 

[GolfChuck]

Excluding missed approach holding, which I have never heard of or even considered being issued as a "hold as published" instruction, my area has only one published hold. The fix is never on a route, because its only purpose is for holding. We rarely use it, because it is right in the middle of our main departure corridor, however it does provide clearance from all military airspace in the sector. Generally we issue holding instructions at other fixes that are more convenient for our traffic flow, but on the chance that we are using the published hold and a pilot doesn't have the chart or their FMS doesn't have the hold, we have a script on the horse collar (sector cheat sheet) with the holding instructions.

Don't be afraid to ask a controller anything. As a pilot and a controller, I do not understand why some pilots are afraid to ask controllers for clarification or help. It is our job as controllers to disseminate that info if you don't have it, and you have done nothing wrong asking for clarification. I would much rather have a pilot ask a question then make an assumption that could result in a loss of separation with another aircraft or adjacent airspace.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I had a student fail an instrument stage check because he was told to hold as published at a fix on the airway he filed for the xc. Freaking out because there was no published hold on the low enroute chart he flew past it. When he flew past it a minute he just turned around and started holding on the airway. The published hold was actually the missed approach hold from an approach into his departure airport. Needless to say it left us both very frustrated.

That's exactly the reason I want to use it in an IPC and in training. It's one of a number of situations, both VFR and IFR, I've come across either personally or in reading which can help impress on the pilot the need to fearlessly query ATC early when there is something in an instruction they don't understand. You can't cover all of them but a few for illustration helps.

My all-time favorite response fro an instrument student was a few years ago. I made up some hold at a DME fix. My student looked at his chart and said, "that makes no sense. you can't do that." He was right; I screwed up the instruction.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Could just ask the pilot if they have the chart in question, and if they don't, give them the full holding clearance to the waypoint?

Sure they could. But obviously they (at least some) don't. The key take-away is that the pilot in the air in conditions conducive to getting a real hold going "WTF??!!" needs to query the controller sitting safely on the ground.

 

[jtrain609]

Excluding missed approach holding, which I have never heard of or even considered being issued as a "hold as published" instruction, my area has only one published hold. The fix is never on a route, because its only purpose is for holding. We rarely use it, because it is right in the middle of our main departure corridor, however it does provide clearance from all military airspace in the sector. Generally we issue holding instructions at other fixes that are more convenient for our traffic flow, but on the chance that we are using the published hold and a pilot doesn't have the chart or their FMS doesn't have the hold, we have a script on the horse collar (sector cheat sheet) with the holding instructions.

Don't be afraid to ask a controller anything. As a pilot and a controller, I do not understand why some pilots are afraid to ask controllers for clarification or help. It is our job as controllers to disseminate that info if you don't have it, and you have done nothing wrong asking for clarification. I would much rather have a pilot ask a question then make an assumption that could result in a loss of separation with another aircraft or adjacent airspace.

First, regarding the bolded portion, it's because we've been chewed out enough on frequency by controllers that some folks don't want to anger a controller. I get chewed out by ATL controllers on a fairly frequent basis, seemingly because they're angry that I don't know some bit of local knowledge because I never go there, knowledge which they assume I should know. ORD ground is another great place to get chewed out for not following their non-standard methods of providing taxi instructions.

Second, the New York area commonly gives out "hold as published" instructions, but it's also clearly charted and given on a regular enough basis that you know to expect it.

 

[spades9048]

First, regarding the bolded portion, it's because we've been chewed out enough on frequency by controllers that some folks don't want to anger a controller. I get chewed out by ATL controllers on a fairly frequent basis, seemingly because they're angry that I don't know some bit of local knowledge because I never go there, knowledge which they assume I should know. ORD ground is another great place to get chewed out for not following their non-standard methods of providing taxi instructions.

Second, the New York area commonly gives out "hold as published" instructions, but it's also clearly charted and given on a regular enough basis that you know to expect it.

Controllers have their 1% just like pilots do. Unfortunately, no group is immune from finding people in them that just wake up every morning to make the lives of others miserable. I've been around other controllers when they like to "chew" out a pilot and it's uncomfortable because 99% of the time, it was a simple misunderstanding that the controller just wanted to take out of proportion. If it makes you feel any better, they don't just act that way to pilots...they like to abuse other controllers as well.

On the flip side, if I give a restricted climb clearance that a pilot can't make...a simple, "unable" is all that is required instead of some sarcastic, drawn out response about how their too heavy followed by chuckles. See, we all have our 1%...

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Controllers have their 1% just like pilots do. Unfortunately, no group is immune from finding people in them that just wake up every morning to make the lives of others miserable. I've been around other controllers when they like to "chew" out a pilot and it's uncomfortable because 99% of the time, it was a simple misunderstanding that the controller just wanted to take out of proportion. If it makes you feel any better, they don't just act that way to pilots...they like to abuse other controllers as well.

On the flip side, if I give a restricted climb clearance that a pilot can't make...a simple, "unable" is all that is required instead of some sarcastic, drawn out response about how their too heavy followed by chuckles. See, we all have our 1%...

"Buzzsaw 5155, maintain two-five-zero knots."
"Very funny, Buzzsaw 5155."