Hey T-cart
- Thread starter WacoFan
- Start date
Waco, As you know, I have been out of the business for the last four seasons having only flown enough ag to barely keep current. Having said that, I do have several close friends still in the business that I stay in touch with on a regular basis.
From what the guys are telling me and from my observations, This part of the industry has not declined much if any. In my area, we work a crop that is dependant on airplanes. Rice is the main staple in my area. On average, we will fly a single rice field at least six times, and sometimes more. Second biggest airplane crop used to be cotton, but I am starting to think that cotton may be on the way out due to low prices and a high cost of production. We somtimes got ten or more trips across a cotton field due to the bollwevil and worms. Then at the end of the season we would get another trip or two defoliating the leaves to get it ready for the picker. A high cost of production that was at the time, supported by the high return per bale. The price has dropped for a bale now. Not sure of the actual prices.
In the last few years, the big news across the midwest has been the "corn run". The price of corn has held pretty good so the farmer is not scared to put a little more production money into the crop. Most of the spraying being done on the corn is to control fungus, and is being protected with an application of "Headline". The big thing about the corn run is that the guys are charging $8-$10 or more per acre and just spraying 3-5 gallons per acre. That is a very good price. I have some friends that have gone up into Illinois and Iowa the last couple of years that have done very well.
Another thing that has helped the ag industry has always been the willingness to charge a rate high enough to cover the cost of doing business.ie, Fuel goes up, flying rates are going up. We have been straightforward with the customers about this and the customer understands that if we cant pay the gas bill, his corn or rice or whatever is not going to get treated. Sure, there is always going to be the guy that starts up and somehow thinks he can do it better and cheaper than the rest of us, but he usually doesnt last very long with that business plan.
There were a lot of new Air Tractor and Turbo Thrushes sold last year. A new A.T.802 is going for around 1.3 million now and the 660 Turbo Thrush is around a million.
I've been getting the itch to get back in over the last couple of years and have committed to fly a 602 this year. I can't shake the bug.
I decided a while back that I wouldn't address this unless I was asked to do so. I know a lot of guys here are having a hard time right now and I have been in those shoes before and would not say anything to offend anyone. I really wish the best for all you guys......T.C.
Sorry Waco, I just saw where you asked about jobs and such. The problem in the ag business right now is that a lot of operators have gone from running four smaller planes to one or two of the bigger turbines, therefore putting the younger, less experienced guys out to find another job. Having said that, A lot of operators are getting older and thinking about retirement, thus a need for pilots. The best advice I could give
someone thinking about this kind of flying is to gas the car up and start riding around in the country and pull in and talk to every operator that will talk to you. You never know, they might be looking for a guy to break in and buy the business in a few years.
Hope this answers your questions.
WacoFan
Bigly
Thanks for the reply T-cart. I have always thought that Ag was a kind of forgotten option for many. I am also interested in how the numbers work in an ag business, but will save that discussion until I can venture south and discuss it over a steak in person. It must work well - to be able to afford $1.3 for an 802 and still turn a profit. As for buying an operation - that would be a dream I think - I will wait until you establish one and then come work a deal!
As a follow-up: Have you ever met Leland Snow? He seems like an extraordinary figure in aviation, but I am not sure anyone outside Ag knows who he is. It would seem that most of the modern Ag planes are derivatives of his original Snow airplanes (such as the Air Tractors and Thrush's). He seems to have built very successful companies that have produced great airplanes. Just ondering what kind of a guy he is.
As a follow-up: Have you ever met Leland Snow? He seems like an extraordinary figure in aviation, but I am not sure anyone outside Ag knows who he is. It would seem that most of the modern Ag planes are derivatives of his original Snow airplanes (such as the Air Tractors and Thrush's). He seems to have built very successful companies that have produced great airplanes. Just ondering what kind of a guy he is.
Well, Where were you in December of 04 when I sold my business?
Have met L.S. several times, Even got a private tour of the factory from the man himself. A very impressive self made man. You are right about the Thrush and Air Tractor being descendants of him. He built his first ag plane,The Snow, back in the fifties I believe. Then he developed the Thrush and built that and then sold the company to Rockwell,hence the Rockwell Thrush Commander. Retired for a few years and then came out with the Air Tractor. I never flew a Snow, but I do have time in both the Thrush and Air Tractor. Am happy flying either one. Both are high quality machines and very comfortable, responsive planes. If I were to buy a new plane tomorrow, It would definetly be one or the other.
I'm not sure how old Mr. Snow is now, but just a few years ago he ran in several marathons. I am pretty sure he is well into his seventies.
TangoBravo
New Member
Thank you T-Cart. I have wondered about the same questions - Ag flying is a mistery to some. Most older folks I know who have done well in this industry say it has become a ridicoulous business not worth pursuing, while those who are currently in it don't share much information.
From the few oldtimers I spoke to, all stated that it is basically senseless to even apply with less than 2500TT and at least 1000 tailwheel. They also said one would probably work as a mixer for quite a while before getting any stick time... if ever.
Other than hitting the road riding from operator to operator, what would be tips you would give to people interested in getting started?
Thanks for your time!
From the few oldtimers I spoke to, all stated that it is basically senseless to even apply with less than 2500TT and at least 1000 tailwheel. They also said one would probably work as a mixer for quite a while before getting any stick time... if ever.
Other than hitting the road riding from operator to operator, what would be tips you would give to people interested in getting started?
Thanks for your time!
mjg407
Well-Known Member
I can also add that the demand is high for AG pilots. It used to be a requirement to have AG time to fly tankers, but no longer, because you can't get that time. With the insurance rates so high, it's a tough business to get into. Some of our pilots still spray in the offseason, one even does helo spraying here in the valley.
TangoBravo
New Member
Quick research brings the following up:
Cost to obtain Ag Training - roughly $15.000 to 18.000 with 4-6 weeks of time...
Unless you find an operator to sponsor/ mentor you and work you into the system - there is literally no chance to land safely in this industry.
Since this industry is full of hot air, operators are unlikely to take any risk with anybody stating he/she would love to be a Ag pilot, just to jump at the first opportunity that presents itself doing something else.
The little bit of exposure I had teaches me:
There are probably a bunch of kids wanting to do this job - but they simply cannot keep up with it's everyday demands. This is hard work, and there is no room for bad attitudes. You can be a halfassed CFI, and you can be a halfassed FO, but you will be dead in less than a year if you halfass your Ag-Job...
So - how does a Commercial Pilot get into this industry, looking at a long term career rather than a quick lesson on how to cut weeds with a prop?
Invest another $18.000 just to hear: "We have 10000 hour Ag Pilots waiting for a job, why would we hire you?" Maybe there is a demand for operators - willing to shell out a mil for a AgCat...?
Help!
While the industries association predicts growing demand, I can not find it.
Cost to obtain Ag Training - roughly $15.000 to 18.000 with 4-6 weeks of time...
Unless you find an operator to sponsor/ mentor you and work you into the system - there is literally no chance to land safely in this industry.
Since this industry is full of hot air, operators are unlikely to take any risk with anybody stating he/she would love to be a Ag pilot, just to jump at the first opportunity that presents itself doing something else.
The little bit of exposure I had teaches me:
There are probably a bunch of kids wanting to do this job - but they simply cannot keep up with it's everyday demands. This is hard work, and there is no room for bad attitudes. You can be a halfassed CFI, and you can be a halfassed FO, but you will be dead in less than a year if you halfass your Ag-Job...
So - how does a Commercial Pilot get into this industry, looking at a long term career rather than a quick lesson on how to cut weeds with a prop?
Invest another $18.000 just to hear: "We have 10000 hour Ag Pilots waiting for a job, why would we hire you?" Maybe there is a demand for operators - willing to shell out a mil for a AgCat...?
Help!
While the industries association predicts growing demand, I can not find it.
TangoBravo, I agree 100% with your post and it is apparent that you have been checking into this. That is a great start.
As for the ag school route, I think that if you can find someone that will take an interest in you as far as breaking you in, it (MIGHT) make a difference in whether or not they will take that chance. I would have a VERY good relationship with an operator before I spent the money to go to an ag school. Now, let me get my operator hat on, If a guy came to me and had shown me the qualities that I was looking for, I might come more near to breaking him in if he shows a real commitment such as spending the money to get training.
Now, the qualities that I spoke about in the above paragraph are probably not what you might expect. I am not talking about flying abilities here. I am talking about one's personality, one's ability to take critisizim(sp),One's ability to accept the very long days that goes with it, You've heard the airline pilots talking about if they would want to be on a four day trip with a person, same deal here. I say all of this to say this, What better way for an ag operator to get to really know someone than by being around him for 14-16 hrs a day.
My answer still is to try and find a operator and try to get on in some capacity, be it a loader, scheduler, manager. It will probably take a couple of years to get to that flying seat full time, but you will learn the operation inside out. Maybe there is an old hanger queen parked out in the weeds. See if there is a possibility of getting it going.
I understand the frustration that new pilots have when trying to get into this. Luckily, I started long enough ago that a high dollar plane could be bought for around $100,000. That isn't the case today when the planes cost 10-14 times that much. And yes, The operator looking to fill a quality turbine seat is more than likely going to hire the 10,000 hr guy over the guy that is fresh out of ag school. That is why I still advocate getting on with a quality operation and working your way up if there is that possibility. Lots of operations promote from within.
A lot of the ag flying today is done with the expensive turbine powered airframes. But, there are still a lot of operations out there using the old Ag Cats and Cessna's and Pawnees. That is more than likely where you are going to find your start. That's just the way it is unless you can get someone to back you. I also know a couple of guys that married the owners daughter and got started that way. True stuff.
It is a hard nut to crack, but once you get "there" it is well worth it. Just be very careful and dont hurt yourself.
WacoFan
Bigly
Here is what I am going to do.
1) Move to Arkansas and pester T-cart until he gives me a seat in an air-conditioned, brand new 602 or 802 (because anything less than a big, top-end Air Tractor is beneath me).
2) After building some experience I am going to go to NorCal and MJG will hire me directly into the left seat of a P-3 so I can be a fire bomber.
Then, between contracts with the fire bombing, I will return to Ark and spray crops.
That is my plan, don't know what the rest of you will do.
1) Move to Arkansas and pester T-cart until he gives me a seat in an air-conditioned, brand new 602 or 802 (because anything less than a big, top-end Air Tractor is beneath me).
2) After building some experience I am going to go to NorCal and MJG will hire me directly into the left seat of a P-3 so I can be a fire bomber.
Then, between contracts with the fire bombing, I will return to Ark and spray crops.
That is my plan, don't know what the rest of you will do.
TangoBravo
New Member
Thank you T-Cart for the amazing insights and opinions.
There are many good sources of information in here but few manage to be as respectful, kind and professional as you.
I happen to come from a family that has had it's run in the ag flying business for some 10.000 hours and my greatest "un motivator" has been that retired Ag Pilot. While he has taught me much about the kind of flying (ag turns, low flying and precise aircraft control- as well as field setups) he has always been first to turn a deaf ear towards my wish to pursue this as a career. Today he mostly claims that people he used to work with are either dead or retired or got burned by the constantly increasing regulatory demands & explosion in insurance requirements. He was lucky enough to find employment in aviation when stick and rudder skills meant more than being able to produce a list of certificates by passing a checkride. Maybe ag flying will remain a dream for many, I'd be just as fine in a Pawnee or old Cessna - but the current economic situation and size of my logbook prevent any further financial strain to make it happen.
One more thing: Quality operators are hard to find if you are outside looking in - any tips or referrals, maybe per private message?
Thank you TangoBravo,
I can certainly relate to your family members thoughts on the business. I myself sold my business at the end of the 2004 season. Mostly for the same reasons your family member stated. Yes, I had a bunch of friends that were killed doing this job. I personally had conjured up in my mind how great retirement was going to be. And, The pressures of being the "shot caller/buck stops here dude" were starting to wear on me somewhat. I sold out and didn't fly at all for a couple of years. The first few weeks of retirement were great. I didn't have to crawl out of bed at 4:30 am, didn't have to be responsible for anyone,businesswise, but me. It was truly a load removed. Every year since then I have still unfortunately heard the news of a friend or someone I know that has died. It is a hard fact of the business.
After a couple of years of this though, I found myself getting the bug again. I am one of those guys that have loved what I do and lucky enough to have done it since High School. I truly love it and am not the same when not involved with it. I understand where your family is coming from. Some people that I know were so tired and burned out that there is no way they want to get into that agin, and I certainly cannot argue their decision. Remember, I hung it up a few years ago. The difference in my case, I was 45 years old when I walked. For me, retirement sucked because my wife and daughter were/are gone M-F from about 6:30 am till around 6:00pm for work and school. All of my friends are working their jobs. I think you see where I am coming from. Idle minds.
I started thinking about getting back in last year and did help a friend some. That just threw gas on the fire. This year I have a 602 waiting for me and I couldnt be more exited. My wife says she can tell a difference in me already. She can see that fire in my eyes again, and she and I think that is a good thing. Does she worry about me? Sure she does, but she also sees how I was when out of it. She would rather me be happy. I am truly lucky to have her.
Jobs affect everyone differently. I can't say that your people are "wrong or right" as there is no such cut and dried answer. It sound like he did the right thing for his particular situation.
As far as your search for the good vs bad operators, Really the best advise I could give anyone is to get out and beat the bushes. I know it is a long shot, but most every ag pilot that I know has started at the ground level. Visit with anyone that will give you the time of day. You can tell pretty quick if someone is blowing smoke up your azz or not.
Good luck to you.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Yeah I think his family got out of the business.
I learned early on in my aviation experience that it's pretty difficult to get into ag flying. Its all about who you know...even more so than other parts of the aviation industry.
mjg407
Well-Known Member
I think also T-Cart you need to add that the AG life that many pilots may not like. It's 12-14 hours a day of tough flying, it's dirty, and the guys I know that do it away from home, they stay in pretty low dollar accommodations. Much like the Tanker industry.
KLB
Well-Known Member
I think also T-Cart you need to add that the AG life that many pilots may not like. It's 12-14 hours a day of tough flying, it's dirty, and the guys I know that do it away from home, they stay in pretty low dollar accommodations. Much like the Tanker industry.
Hey that sounds like my job!
TangoBravo
New Member
I think also T-Cart you need to add that the AG life that many pilots may not like. It's 12-14 hours a day of tough flying, it's dirty, and the guys I know that do it away from home, they stay in pretty low dollar accommodations. Much like the Tanker industry.
Every job has it's hardships and downsides I suppose.
It's still safe to say that dedication & true interest in this industry (from my perspective) gets nothing accomplished. Looks like too many operators may have been burned by what I call "one day bugs". An operator has to invest time and money and interest into his future pilots and it seems like they don't want to do that. Then, you add the insurance nightmare and many people with the heart and interest are flushed for good.
flyinawa
Well-Known Member
One of my friends from the company formerly known as America West just left his A320 FO spot and took a job with an Ag operator. Evidently, he had tailwheel and radial time from previous cargo hauling jobs and just felt he was stagnating on the bottom of the list at at airline. He just went in cold and talked to the owner, telling him it was something he had always wanted to do and wanted to know how it all worked and how he could break into it. It kind of sounds like the guys just took him under his wing (*no pun intended) and has been teaching him the business. His wife convinced him to take an EVLA instead of just quitting but after spending a bunch of his off time over the past 6+ months going down and working with the guy, he's outta here. He has high expectations of what the future will hold and a reasonable (*relatively low) income goal for his first year. If it blows up in his face (*not literally, I'm hoping) he always has his Airbus seat when the airline starts to hire again.
Plus, I move up one number....which is pretty sweet.
Plus, I move up one number....which is pretty sweet.