Here's what a lack of scope gets you....

falconvalley said:
Scope? Midwest Airlines is owned by RAH now. Midwest pilots WILL be integrated. In the mean time, it looks like there is not yet a negotiated way to get them into aircraft that will be replacing the 717. The 190 is on a different certificate. When the seniority lists are combined, then we'll see what we have to complain about. This is more about M and A than about scope. Please do not make this a scope soap box. You could very well see them get into the 190 and step over you in the process.
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SoCalAprch said:
The lists are frozen on the day of aquisition. So even if they all got furloughed tommorrow they would all be integrated as active employees if they were online at that time. They did have a bunch of guys furloughed when the aquisition was made but not everyone. Still a crappy situation because most likely they will all be furloughed until the integration is complete. I spoke with a member of our integration committee and right now they are waiting for Frontier to come to the table. Allegheny Mohawk states that all involed parties have to be present to begin official negotiations or something along those lines andd Bedford keeps telling the Frontier pilots that they "may" not need to integrate thus slowing the process down more and more and allowing more and more guys from Midwest to be kicked to the curb. Bedford knows this is a direct violation of our contract and I think he is using it as a way to delay the process.

As for growth at RAH I think it has been said that all furloughs from every certificate will be back by the end of 2010. Still a long ways out but I have a funny feeling that there is going to be a big annouoncement coming out with regards to a big order of aircraft in the near future. Also lll put some money on the assumption that there are some big code shares in the works as well. Interesting that CAL/USAIR/UAL are all Star Alliance and Bedford waited till the day CAL joined to move with this plan. Too many coincidences with Delta/NWA (TPG) and CAL to think that people weren't having some serious back room "off the record" meetings.
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I like how you guys are thinking. It's especially important to note that DAL was well aware of the YX deal, since they owned a chunk of that company.

Good posts, gentleman.
 
Growth under the Midwest colors and Frontier? Also are the Lynx pilots coming to the table for the talks as well? I assume the answer is yes since you only left out F9 on the previous comments. The whole growth thing under the certificates rumor just blows me away if its not under the Midwest/Frontier colors. I just dont see it under any other codeshare as some such as USairways are already having issues with the number of large RJ's flown at the regional level. Unless RAH is to buy USairways :)! Ok I know not exactly the most likely but I do believe your last point is right. More people were doing things behind the curtain on this deal.

Even Parker at USairways said he wishes RAh the best of luck but laughed about the possibility of it working. But the ended saying, he was much happier to see RAH win out on the F9 deal then SWA.... Which made me wonder...

I am gald to hear about the group pushing the consolidation of the pilot groups. The sooner the better of everyone will be. But i just hope for those whom I do get along with at RAH you all dont grow too quick and screw your bottom part of your senioirty list.
 
meyers9163 said:
Even Parker at USairways said he wishes RAh the best of luck but laughed about the possibility of it working. But the ended saying, he was much happier to see RAH win out on the F9 deal then SWA.... Which made me wonder...
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Parker also said pay by seat is dead.....

I am gald to hear about the group pushing the consolidation of the pilot groups.
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The contract I voted YES on created the scope that is forcing this to happen

The sooner the better of everyone will be.
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I'll disagree. I've seen the problems of deals that looked great in "hustle mode" and were full of more holes than swiss cheese.

Go for the long term win.

But i just hope for those whom I do get along with at RAH you all dont grow too quick and screw your bottom part of your senioirty list.
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In the time I was there (9 years) the pilot cadre grew 10 times. That's an unprecedented (as far as I know) growth rate for an airline that's not a start-up.

Guys, the explosive growth over the past 10 years in the airlines are over. We probably won't see a cycle like that again until towards the end of our careers, or later. It will take another game-changing technology to cause that, and none are on the horizon.

What is on the horizon are ETS. It's in Europe, and that's a buggaboo that if we get here, will curtail any growth until it's learned how it'll affect things.

There will be limited hiring spurts, but for the most part, the fleet count for the passenger airlines will not substantially change for the next 10-15 years.

The current number of pilots (counting from the most junior passenger airline pilot to the most senior widebody CA) will not change. I'd give it +/- 10% for hiring surges and furloughs at most. It's back to attrition-based movement beginning in earnst December 2012.
 
SoCalAprch said:
The lists are frozen on the day of aquisition.
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I don't believe the LPPs provide for that at all. That's up to the arbitrator. Under ALPA Merger Policy, the lists are frozen on the Policy Initiation Date (PID), which is set by the Executive Council after a merger is announced, but that doesn't apply under a non-ALPA merger.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't believe the LPPs provide for that at all. That's up to the arbitrator. Under ALPA Merger Policy, the lists are frozen on the Policy Initiation Date (PID), which is set by the Executive Council after a merger is announced, but that doesn't apply under a non-ALPA merger.
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You may be correct I was just going on what one of the guys on our integration committee told me. Everything they have been telling me is that they will be integrated as active employees if they were active on the date of aquisition. I also don't see an arbitrator kicking all those guys to the curb once he/she looks at what our company has done to their pilot group. It doesnt take a genious to realize that these guys have been thrown under the bus in a very unfair manner.
 
SoCalAprch said:
I also don't see an arbitrator kicking all those guys to the curb once he/she looks at what our company has done to their pilot group. It doesnt take a genious to realize that these guys have been thrown under the bus in a very unfair manner.
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You haven't been through much arbitration have you?
 
SoCal's been told by folks who actually have been through arbitration before. Not saying that means it will happen that way, but RAH does have some people with street cred :)
 
falconvalley said:
SoCal's been told by folks who actually have been through arbitration before. Not saying that means it will happen that way, but RAH does have some people with street cred :)
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A great deal of my job deals with arbitrations. Believe me when I tell you that you can never count on certain results from arbitrations. Arbitrations are final and binding, and rarely do they go as planned. If your people are saying that they know how it will go, then trust me, they don't have any "street cred."
 
Clocks said:
Is anyone surprised by anything in this thread? Really?

"Oh look, a pilot group is getting raped by another group who wont lift a finger to help". That's not even news any more.
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Not quite sure how this is helpful.

We could sit around the campfire and tubthump or actually figure out what we can do.
 
kellwolf said:
Unless it's a scope arbitration b/w Pinnacle and Colgan that says one thing, goes back on it a few months later and leaves everyone involved thinking "Whaaat???"
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You just proved my point. The arbitrator is so powerful that he can say one thing today, and then clarify it to something completely different a few months later, and no one can do anything about it. Why? Because he's in charge. The courts won't overturn his decisions because they don't want to have start dealing with these cases. Hell, the courts usually won't even agree to hear the cases in the first place. The arbitrator is a one-man judge, jury, and executioner. It's best that everyone remember that whenever they choose to go to arbitration.
 
Past experience in arbitration is why none of us really want to go with the "Uh....we'll work out the dual qualification issues later in arbitration" that the company wanted/wants to go with. Basically, that's what's in the TA, too. :banghead:
 
kellwolf said:
Past experience in arbitration is why none of us really want to go with the "Uh....we'll work out the dual qualification issues later in arbitration" that the company wanted/wants to go with. Basically, that's what's in the TA, too. :banghead:
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The TA is a little more specific, though. It gives the arbitrator a range of vacancies per aircraft that is pretty reasonable by Pinnacle's staffing history, and he only gets to make a determination within that range.

(Not that I like the rest of the TA, though.)
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The TA is a little more specific, though. It gives the arbitrator a range of vacancies per aircraft that is pretty reasonable by Pinnacle's staffing history, and he only gets to make a determination within that range.

(Not that I like the rest of the TA, though.)
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Call me nuts, but 3-4 crews per aircraft does NOT give me the warm fuzzies when it comes to dual qualification. If they decide they want 3 crews per aircraft, can you say "downgrades and furloughs?" Hell, if they go with FOUR we're looking at that. We're already JMing and extending to cover what we have at over 5 per aircraft. This coupled with the "reserves can be put BACK on reserve for 12 hours from the end of the preceding rest period" and losing vacation slide.....I'm a little nervous.
 
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