Here's what a lack of scope gets you....

meyers9163

meyers9163

Well-Known Member
Pilot's Permanent Vacancy and Displacement Notice
2009-05 Fourth Quarter Posting
Positions
Positions Available - Positions Awarded - Vacancies
Captain B717 MKE
0 - 46 - 46
First Officer B717 MKE
0 - 41 - 41
Posting Date: September 1, 2009
Closing Date: September 7, 2009 @ 1800
•
Due to the elimination of the remaining five aircraft, the downgrade and furlough process will continue
throughout the fourth quarter
•
At this time, we are anticipating that all B717s will cease flying by the end of the year
Potential Furlough Dates and Numbers
October 31st = 8
November 10th = 20
December 4th = 19
- All remaining pilots will be furloughed when aircraft operations cease
• Downgrades will take place starting mid-October through the beginning of December



Knew it was coming but to think all the Midwest guys will be on the street and not even offered a Captain slot onto a E190 or anything is sad.... :( I wonder how it all ends up, guess only time shall tell..
 
Back in the day the "scab list" was created, I sense a need to create a new list of "backstabbers". While a pilot alone cannot be called a "backstabber", the union (whatever one- ALPA, IBT, inhouse) always has the ability to anchor the ship. While the 190 is a gorgeous jet, the beautiful dream of anything "mainline" falls into the fantasy world every time a regional adds another mainline jet to the certificate. When an entire group stands in front of management they can't be moved without costing more than just dealing with the group. Think long term for once!

I don't fault republic guys- but we as regional pilots all need to do something to stop this before all of us are screwed forever. This profession was pillaged after 9/11- it's time to take back the industry.

Call me what you want- I'm not pointing a single finger at any professional, I am eluding to checking egos to get things accomplished.
 
higney85 said:
Back in the day the "scab list" was created, I sense a need to create a new list of "backstabbers". While a pilot alone cannot be called a "backstabber", the union (whatever one- ALPA, IBT, inhouse) always has the ability to anchor the ship. While the 190 is a gorgeous jet, the beautiful dream of anything "mainline" falls into the fantasy world every time a regional adds another mainline jet to the certificate. When an entire group stands in front of management they can't be moved without costing more than just dealing with the group. Think long term for once!

I don't fault republic guys- but we as regional pilots all need to do something to stop this before all of us are screwed forever. This profession was pillaged after 9/11- it's time to take back the industry.

Call me what you want- I'm not pointing a single finger at any professional, I am eluding to checking egos to get things accomplished.
Click to expand...
Ironically our current TA addresses scope to the fullest extent. It is good for our industry.
 
When does it become the pilots (we, not you or me but all of us) fault for flying E-190's or whatever the flavor of the day is and eliminating any possible advancement, though?

Just thoughts thrown out there. When do we actually stand up for our future? Please don't throw out the "get the job and work on improving it" as that is not working.

Good luck to the Amerijet crews as that is the front line right now...who's next? I've put forth my Benjamin and am hoping to go down there when I get back into the US. This from a guy who has no real aspirations for the airlines...:pirate:
 
higney85 said:
Back in the day the "scab list" was created, I sense a need to create a new list of "backstabbers". While a pilot alone cannot be called a "backstabber", the union (whatever one- ALPA, IBT, inhouse) always has the ability to anchor the ship. While the 190 is a gorgeous jet, the beautiful dream of anything "mainline" falls into the fantasy world every time a regional adds another mainline jet to the certificate. When an entire group stands in front of management they can't be moved without costing more than just dealing with the group. Think long term for once!

I don't fault republic guys- but we as regional pilots all need to do something to stop this before all of us are screwed forever. This profession was pillaged after 9/11- it's time to take back the industry.

Call me what you want- I'm not pointing a single finger at any professional, I am eluding to checking egos to get things accomplished.
Click to expand...

Scab is a quantifiable and solidly defined title. How would you quantify a backstabber? I see what your point and intent is, and generally agree; but can see that list getting out of control if anyone felt they were wronged and/or backstabbed by anyone else for whatever reason.
 
I thought when one airline bought another the seniority lists were combined...somehow or another. Is this not always the case?
 
Scope? Midwest Airlines is owned by RAH now. Midwest pilots WILL be integrated. In the mean time, it looks like there is not yet a negotiated way to get them into aircraft that will be replacing the 717. The 190 is on a different certificate. When the seniority lists are combined, then we'll see what we have to complain about. This is more about M and A than about scope. Please do not make this a scope soap box. You could very well see them get into the 190 and step over you in the process.
 
Just from the sidelines, what does the contract say about "fragmentation" language?
 
falconvalley said:
Scope? Midwest Airlines is owned by RAH now. Midwest pilots WILL be integrated.
Click to expand...

Wanna bet the company (RAH) is going to argue that those pilots have zero career expectations at the time of the integration arbitration (because you KNOW it's going to go there). Take a look at where the furloughed USAir guys ended up on the "merged" list.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the exMidEx guys stapled to the bottom of the combined list.
 
BobDDuck said:
Wanna bet the company (RAH) is going to argue that those pilots have zero career expectations at the time of the integration arbitration (because you KNOW it's going to go there). Take a look at where the furloughed USAir guys ended up on the "merged" list.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the exMidEx guys stapled to the bottom of the combined list.
Click to expand...


Bingo.

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I dont think the company cares who comprises their seniority list, or rather what order they do. If anyone screws over the Midwest pilots its going to be the RAH pilots.
 
BobDDuck said:
Wanna bet the company (RAH) is going to argue that those pilots have zero career expectations at the time of the integration arbitration (because you KNOW it's going to go there). Take a look at where the furloughed USAir guys ended up on the "merged" list.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the exMidEx guys stapled to the bottom of the combined list.
Click to expand...

And I think that's where its going.... :( Although I was shocked to hear from a buddy he thinks RAH is going to be EXPANDING over the next 6 months on all their certificates? I was lost with what he meant by that if it were due to the Midwest/F9 stuff or what exactly, because I dont forsee any legacy giving them more flying.... Let alone we have to see if any airlines have their no competition clauses like USairways has already spoken out about. It sounds like DAL does not from speaking with a few of their pilots due to it being a different certificate. And I know USairways it does not matter, they can not compete with direct markets regarless of certificate. So it will be interesting to see.... :)
 
BobDDuck said:
Wanna bet the company (RAH) is going to argue that those pilots have zero career expectations at the time of the integration arbitration (because you KNOW it's going to go there). Take a look at where the furloughed USAir guys ended up on the "merged" list.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the exMidEx guys stapled to the bottom of the combined list.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I think you're right. All of the pilots will be furloughed before the integration takes place, and furloughed pilots are typically stapled in SLI arbitrations. Not good. :(
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Unfortunately, I think you're right. All of the pilots will be furloughed before the integration takes place, and furloughed pilots are typically stapled in SLI arbitrations. Not good. :(
Click to expand...

Well from talking to a few CMH based crews.... It sounds like that is their understanding as well. All the pilots whom were there when the deal went through is what RAH's union is pushing to bring to the property. And the rest... Well I assume would never bring themself over to be placed on the bottom....

Then talking to an old friend of mine also a CMH based I got the, "Well ALPA'a a lost group" so what did you expect them to do for the others whom were furloughed before the merger........ Well I guess since he's been there now going on 2 years he knows it all and thus we should not worry about the other 300 whom have been flying for years before him and have a great deal of experience more then him and I both combined... A sad but sick industry when someone was hired with 500 hours at RAH and now sitting with 2600 is thinking their crap does not stink and wants to know where the other 300 pilots would go since "their" flying isnt around any more. I guess all the birds with Midwest represent flying that was never done by a Midwest crew??? Thus the reason this guy is an old friend since we cant agree on anything and never can see eye to eye......

I hope when places starting hiring again a few of these real midwest pilots can make it onto a new property of something far better then RAH would have ever offered them....
 
So much for a home town airline when your home town employees are lacking a job but they want to then publish articles like this to make you feel better about yourself in MKE....




Republic may shift Frontier Airlines work to Milwaukee
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Sept. 3, 2009 9:48 p.m.



The company that recently bought Midwest Airlines and is buying Denver-based Frontier Airlines might shift 150 to 400 jobs from Denver and elsewhere to the Milwaukee area.

Republic Airways Holdings Inc. executives are considering the jobs shifts and could make a decision within 30 days, Republic Chief Executive Officer Bryan Bedford said Thursday.

Frontier Airlines Holdings Inc. said this week that creditors have approved its bankruptcy reorganization plan, including its planned purchase by Republic. Frontier said it expects its Sept. 10 confirmation hearing in bankruptcy court in New York to be "largely uncontested."

The Frontier jobs that are in play include a customer service center in Las Cruces, N.M., with 150 employees; another 150 heavy maintenance jobs at Denver International Airport, and around 100 other Denver-based positions, Bedford said.

The Las Cruces customer service center will definitely be relocated to save money, Bedford said. Milwaukee, Denver and Indianapolis, where Republic has its corporate headquarters, are each being considered for that operation, he said.

The Denver positions that are in play could stay in that city, or could be moved to Milwaukee or Indianapolis, he said.

The Milwaukee area is being considered in part because both the Midwest operations center, at 6744 S. Howell Ave. in Oak Creek, and the Midwest maintenance hangar near Mitchell International Airport have a lot of available space, Bedford said.

That's the result of job cuts that occurred at Midwest over the past year or so. Most of the cuts, involving over 2,000 positions, occurred before Midwest was sold to Republic on July 31 for $31 million.

Midwest has about 1,000 Milwaukee-area positions but is laying off its union pilots and flight attendants while replacing their aircraft with Republic jets. Those Midwest flight crews could be rehired by Republic, but only after their unions and the unions representing Republic flight crews merge their job seniority lists.

Bedford made his remarks in a meeting with the Journal Sentinel's editorial board. He also repeated plans by Republic to add more Midwest flights from Milwaukee, including renewed service to West Coast destinations.

"There will be some news coming," he said.

Some of those new flights will be on Airbus A319 and A320 jets from Frontier, Bedford said. Republic is scheduled to complete its purchase of Frontier on Oct. 1.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.
 
Is anyone surprised by anything in this thread? Really?

"Oh look, a pilot group is getting raped by another group who wont lift a finger to help". That's not even news any more.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Unfortunately, I think you're right. All of the pilots will be furloughed before the integration takes place, and furloughed pilots are typically stapled in SLI arbitrations. Not good. :(
Click to expand...

The lists are frozen on the day of aquisition. So even if they all got furloughed tommorrow they would all be integrated as active employees if they were online at that time. They did have a bunch of guys furloughed when the aquisition was made but not everyone. Still a crappy situation because most likely they will all be furloughed until the integration is complete. I spoke with a member of our integration committee and right now they are waiting for Frontier to come to the table. Allegheny Mohawk states that all involed parties have to be present to begin official negotiations or something along those lines andd Bedford keeps telling the Frontier pilots that they "may" not need to integrate thus slowing the process down more and more and allowing more and more guys from Midwest to be kicked to the curb. Bedford knows this is a direct violation of our contract and I think he is using it as a way to delay the process.

As for growth at RAH I think it has been said that all furloughs from every certificate will be back by the end of 2010. Still a long ways out but I have a funny feeling that there is going to be a big annouoncement coming out with regards to a big order of aircraft in the near future. Also lll put some money on the assumption that there are some big code shares in the works as well. Interesting that CAL/USAIR/UAL are all Star Alliance and Bedford waited till the day CAL joined to move with this plan. Too many coincidences with Delta/NWA (TPG) and CAL to think that people weren't having some serious back room "off the record" meetings.
 
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