Help with transition from light twin to turbo prop especially visual maneuvers!!!

[flyinghedgehog]

I am flying Beech 99 and it is my first turbo prop ever. My instrument approaches are good but my visual maneuver sucks! (that is not an exaggeration.) For example, when I do stalls it took me too long to set power to max torque (can't firewall it and can't fixate on one instrument, not used to how much the travel is for the throttle so ended up undershooting twice (400 foot pound less than what I need) and lost a couple hundred feet.) It is frustrating, how hard could it be to set torque quickly without fixating? Then the circling approach and traffic pattern---as I start leaving MDA or descending I would set power too low and end up bleeding off a lot of airspeed.. Things this simple (like being able to tell if the airplane is high or low, fast or slow), are somehow difficult. I just can't seem to eyeball the runway environment and stuff and set the power right. (frustrating because I was able to eyeball it just fine flying light twin so don't know why flying turboprop should totally throw me off the loop)

I did not even know what altitude/distance from the runway I should be when I make my base turn and final turn (and well, when you are circling there are even more variable, your power setting would depend on how far you are from the runway, etc...)

What is funny is I can tell what power setting to use to do precision and non precision approach. It is when I do visual maneuver that I have a hard time.

Any advice? By the way as we all know , flying piston we fly 1000' pattern altitude, turn base around 800, final around 500. What would the number be like flying pattern in turbo prop? What about when circling? Any tips on learning to "see" the visual cues and figure out your power setting? There seems to be no time to hunt around. The company is kind of small and the pilots just eyeball it and I did not get concrete answers out of them when I asked.

And this may be a silly question---why 1500 foot pattern altitude? Must be something about geometry but I don't understand.

Please, please, somebody help!!!!

Thanks a lot!

 

[Stone Cold]

An airplane is an airplane is an airplane. What altitude did you use for any other plane? You start higher but end at the same point on a 3 degree gs. 3 to 1 always and forever.

As for power settings, you just have to get used to it. When taking off, keep in mind how far the power went up, and use that as a guide.

Good luck... We're all counting on you!

 

[deadstick]

Power for stall recovery: you just have to get a feel of where your hand needs to be. You're expected to lose some altitude.

Distance from the runway: are you Cat B or C? Does the IAP have a the new radii? Many people crowd the runway and that can cause problems.

Leaving MDA: reduce power*, roll in some nose down trim, flaps down, and after a second or two VERIFY a descent on the VSI. When do you put your props forward?

*What torque do you use on an ILS when fully configured? This should be your target torque for the same configuration.

 

[flyinghedgehog]

Hi Deadstick,

I am cat C. Believe the IAP have the new radii. I am just not used to the dimension. The goal is to set up power setting that is appropriate and leave MDA at the point that is appropriate ( not too far from the threshold or else I have to drag it in using high power setting, not too close or else I will get excessive ROD). I just realized now after @Stone Cold posted his rsponse that it should look the same like 3degree flight path to the runway which should be familiar enough. I am not sure why it looks unfamiliar all of a sudden.

Prop forward prior to FAF.

600 torque on the ILS. It is just that when I fly the pattern I don't know how big it should be, where should base turn and turn to final be made in relation to the runway (like what altitude AGL) and also how far downwind do I go till I turn base , and how far should I be laterally from the runway when flying the pattern.I know there are many ways to do it, I just want to find a " recipe" so to speak and do it consistently to begin with. Once I am used to the plane I can make up stuff.

 

[mikecweb]

Sounds like you are flying very mechanical and that will get you into a bind as the flying world is very dynamic. But figure out how far of a final you are turning then just work the problem back. 1500ft pattern is the turbine aircraft recommended altitude in the aim. If you are using circling distances you’ll be much lower (MDA) obviously.

 

[Jordan93]

Think less numbers and more just flying the plane. I understand that your company has set procedures and when to do what but you're probably just overthinking. A visual approach is the same whether you're in a piston, turboprop or jet. Everything happens a little quicker so just plan ahead.

 

[Cptnchia]

It is just that when I fly the pattern I don't know how big it should be, where should base turn and turn to final be made in relation to the runway (like what altitude AGL) and also how far downwind do I go till I turn base , and how far should I be laterally from the runway when flying the pattern.I know there are many ways to do it, I just want to find a " recipe" so to speak and do it consistently to begin with. Once I am used to the plane I can make up stuff.

I'm sure some will disagree, but turn your base just outside the FAF at crossing height. Intercept final just outside. That is a 3:1 GS. If the pattern alt is lower than that, just turn your base to intercept final on a 3:1. If it is 1500, once you're past the end of the runway, start your descent. You can intercept a 3 mile final at 900. Once you get the sight picture down, you can refine your technique. Keep in mind, that you need to fly the pattern in a manner that makes YOU comfortable, not what some cowboy wants you to do. Don't set yourself up for a rushed approach.

 

[Flyinthrew]

600 torque on the ILS. It is just that when I fly the pattern I don't know how big it should be, where should base turn and turn to final be made in relation to the runway (like what altitude AGL) and also how far downwind do I go till I turn base , and how far should I be laterally from the runway when flying the pattern.I know there are many ways to do it, I just want to find a " recipe" so to speak and do it consistently to begin with. Once I am used to the plane I can make up stuff.

If you want "gates" to go through, use the 5xGS rule of thumb to set your 3 degree glide path at the abeam position. Just like intercepting glide path on a straight in your path over the ground should be 5 miles-ish. Your abeam distance is probably about a mile, may a little more. That means roughly two miles out on the abeam, a mile on base, and two miles on final. If your groundspeed on downwind is 120 then fly past the abeam position for a bit under 60 seconds and until about 1000' AGL (the turns will carry you further out, and I have no idea what radius of turn your plane has). After that, everything is visual (don't get slow, it's just like your last piston aircraft).

Then remember that you can't be terribly formulaic flying high performance aircraft. Big changes in wind conditions and widely varying gross weights change lots of the inputs.

Personally I always fly the same ground track, dive off the abeam position, and intercept 3 degrees at the 90 when some field makes me fly a high downwind. But then, I'm the only one in the airplane, there's almost always another with a slightly less experienced pilot in it .7 miles behind me, and nobody is going to try to blog about how drunk I appear to be.

 

[inigo88]

And this may be a silly question---why 1500 foot pattern altitude? Must be something about geometry but I don't understand.

I'm not a twin turboprop driver, but I've always heard the +500 ft offset was to keep faster traffic decontlicted from slower traffic in the pattern. Kinda makes sense if you think about it in the context of overtaking a nordo Piper Cub on downwind at an uncontrolled field, and you don't see them until the last minute, right?

It sounds like you're a very procedural profile driven pilot. I suffer from the same affliction, and will memorize airspeed and altitude profiles in the pattern, especially as a way of "faking it until I make it" in a new airplane. (Ex: Downwind abeam at this power setting, at this altitude, at this speed. Turn base at this altitude, at this speed, etc.)

That can be a helpful training tool to familiarize yourself with a new airplane, but as @mikecweb said flying is just too dynamic to let rely on the numbers. That pattern profile will really only be good for one airplane, at one airport elevation. You MUST learn the sight picture to be flexible in the long term.

Two experiences recently humbled me on this topic and made me realize I was relying too much on profiles as a crutch in my flying.

The first was getting my commercial glider rating. Unless you're in lift, a glider is always trading airspeed for altitude - therefore you never fly a constant altitude on downwind. You are constantly judging your height and distance from the field throughout the pattern and adjusting your descent rate accordingly. Proper sight picture is an absolute must, and this point was driven home by my CFI constantly covering the altimeter.

The second was a couple hours of dual I got recently in a Robinson R-22. Helicopters fly much steeper approaches than airplanes - and you must understand the sight picture to execute it properly. My helicopter CFI caught me trying to fly the approach consistently based on distance/altitude/speed, and the wrath I incurred resulted in EVERY instrument in the cockpit being covered except the manifold pressure and RPMs.

Moral of the story, the other guys are right. An airplane is an airplane, figure out the sight picture. Figuring out a profile will help you get up to speed but will do you a disservice if you use it as a crutch in the long term.

 

[Roger Roger]

Lol at PT6 power control.

 

[flyinghedgehog]

inigo88

Speaking of covering the Altimeter.

Yeah speaking of which I talked to the CP (who has trained like 100 people til recently , he just gets too busy to do that stuff). He said if I am flying visual the only instrument I really need is the Airspeed indicator. None of the pilots here know their "gate" altitude at each point they turn, they just eyeball it. I had been able to do so fine in the jump plane so I know what you mean.

I may just ask the training captain to cover everything up except for the torque meter and the airspeed indicator. I KNOW I can fly like that, it is just difficult for me to switch to that mode and if I can't switch voluntarily then I will just force myself to do it.

I am not happy about the situation and the training CP is not either, but at the end of the day I am glad I am making mistakes and learning now rather than further down the road.

 

[A300Capt]

You're waaaay over thinking it to the point of a mental block and a confidence issue.

Turboprops are way easier to maneuver on visuals than pistons since you don't have to worry about shock cooling the engines and more power for adjustments. Pull the power to idle and enjoy the "plywood board like speedbrakes" from those Pratt props. The only thing different from a piston is the slower spool up time (PT6's not Garrett's)after applying power.

Use a 3 to 1 profile as mentioned before. Get yourself setup on speed from 1-2-3-5 miles out etc..( 300'-600'-900'-1500' etc..AGL as altitude gates). Once in one of the gates...start down about 6-700'/ min and keep the touchdown point stationary in the winshield. All you need in your scan at that point is the airspeed indicator.

Oh, and "Trim, Trim....trim"!

 

[flyinghedgehog]

@A300Capt that was one of the best advice lol.

want to let you all know I get it now. For me keeping the airspeed up then use power to adjust height works fine. What I need is having that basic altitude gates to go through and I don't know why I never thought about it--probably because I used to just eyeball it without thinking about 3 to 1 profile! I also know the torque range to shoot for and adjust from there. Thank you for all the responses. If anyone has anything else to say feel free

 

[woodreau]

Looks like you'll be a pro in no time.
Then things like being abeam the numbers at 11,000ft in STL, and they tell you cleared for the visual, keep your base turn tight, md-80 on 5 mile final and they want you to land before the maddog - are no sweat.

That's when everything comes out - props, flaps, gear, and you fly as well as a paving brick.

 

[Mavmb]

The higher pattern altitude is to separate the faster traffic from the slower piston traffic. Find a point on the windshield or side window when turning your base. Also ask the training captain to demonstrate the time to turn final and some manuevers. Than just watch so you get the picture of what it looks like.

 

[gotWXdagain]

And also, a 1500' 1-1/4 to 1.5 mile traffic pattern will put your turns about 1000' agl and 500' agl, assuming normal wind conditions.