Help with landing flare

Rosstafari

Rosstafari

Hello, this is Orlando mayor Buddy Dyer
I’m not entirely sure if this is the best sub for this question, so mods, please kick this somewhere else if I guessed wrong.

Any of you able to provide some advice on mastering flares during landings? I’ve been working in the pattern for about 15 hours or so and it’s the last part that I’m not very consistent with. Pattern is fine, I can maintain speeds within a couple knots and set up a pretty stable approach on a regular basis... but when it comes time for the flare, about a third of the time I’m doing it about 5-10 feet higher than I should. I also am working in getting the soft touch you need when correcting it... you know, the subtle release of back pressure when you start to climb as opposed to letting it jolt forward and drop too much.

2016 C172, btw. I understand they tend to float a little more than low wings? Normal approach is at 65 till landing assured, 20% flaps. I tend to have the flare issue pretty consistently regardless of landing type (i.e. normal vs. short field).

Appreciate any advice you guys have.
 
Rosstafari said:
I’m not entirely sure if this is the best sub for this question, so mods, please kick this somewhere else if I guessed wrong.

Any of you able to provide some advice on mastering flares during landings? I’ve been working in the pattern for about 15 hours or so and it’s the last part that I’m not very consistent with. Pattern is fine, I can maintain speeds within a couple knots and set up a pretty stable approach on a regular basis... but when it comes time for the flare, about a third of the time I’m doing it about 5-10 feet higher than I should. I also am working in getting the soft touch you need when correcting it... you know, the subtle release of back pressure when you start to climb as opposed to letting it jolt forward and drop too much.

2016 C172, btw. I understand they tend to float a little more than low wings? Normal approach is at 65 till landing assured, 20% flaps. I tend to have the flare issue pretty consistently regardless of landing type (i.e. normal vs. short field).

Appreciate any advice you guys have.
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Best advice I can give is look further down the runway, approach speed of 65 is probably too fast, use trim, finally, try to fly down the runway an inch above the runway while looking down at the end with the power at idel and you'll make nice smooth landings. Flaring too high is pretty much definitely due to looking over the nose instead of looking down the runway.
 
Honestly, some things just take experience and practice, and the flare is one of them. So simple repetition is probably your best bet. Other things I might recommend are:

First idea: Having your eyes shift from the aimpoint to the end of the runway, and then to the horizon as you go into the round out and flare. This can help you pick up altitude cues w/your peripheral vision. Your peripheral vision is pretty good at giving you height above ground information almost subconsciously... much better than your focused vision, and that will put your focused vision at the horizon (and more importantly at the PITCH PICTURE for the flare). That way, you'll see what the flare attitude looks like with your focused vision, while you pick up the balloon and/or sink with your peripheral. And hopefully, you'll see how small a change in that pitch attitude is required for the correction which may help that "subtle release/increase in back pressure" that you mentioned.

Second idea: More IP demos. Sometimes our instructors demonstrate something very early in training (as they should) but then focus on us doing it the rest of the time. Often, we don't pick up subtleties on those early demos, because we are still working on the big picture. Watching someone who is good at something is useful when we are just beginning, but it is useful later on too. We pick up more of the little nuances that make the difference between "just ok" and "great" later on than we do on our first couple of watchings of a demo.

Third recommendation: in the KC-135 we did this thing called a "landing attitude demo" for guys having trouble landing. You fly down into ground effect and level off about a foot above the runway but leave power in. The airplane flies in the "flare" without ever touching down, but you get more time to see the flare that way. You could get almost a minute, maybe a minute and a half of "flaring" that way, instead of just a few seconds. Then as you near the end of the runway, go around and climb out. I'm not sure if that's a common thing in the C172 or not but run the idea by your IP and see what he thinks.

But really, more reps... just like going to the gym. As frustrating as that sounds.
 
ppragman said:
Best advice I can give is look further down the runway, approach speed of 65 is probably too fast, use trim, finally, try to fly down the runway an inch above the runway while looking down at the end with the power at idel and you'll make nice smooth landings. Flaring too high is pretty much definitely due to looking over the nose instead of looking down the runway.
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It alway hard to know without being there, but this is the single most common issue I see. Even with my own landings, if I'm having a transient problem due to rust or just switching airplane models, this is it.
 
It’s been a long time since I’ve CFI’d or flown GA, but a few pointers that I remember. Anyone please correct anything that I say is wrong.

Pick the stripe you want to land on. Make the stripe before that your aim point. Stick that aim point in one spot on the windshield and don’t let it move. Honestly I forget where you’d cut the power to idle, but on a smaller runway where you are landing pretty close to the end, the threshold feels like the right thing to say. As your aim point disappears from view under the cowling, start your flare and look all the way down to the end if the runway. Keep the roundout going until you touch the runway just above stall speed.

Good pravtice is fly an approach like that, get down just short of touching down, add some power and fly down the runway a bit keeping it right in that sweet spot before going around.
 
I'm in the process of learning how to teach this right now, and I'd echo what the others said about looking down the runway.

Also - have you tried doing no-flap landings first? Just focusing on landing attitude?
 
Screaming_Emu said:
It’s been a long time since I’ve CFI’d or flown GA, but a few pointers that I remember. Anyone please correct anything that I say is wrong.

Pick the stripe you want to land on. Make the stripe before that your aim point. Stick that aim point in one spot on the windshield and don’t let it move. Honestly I forget where you’d cut the power to idle,
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That depends a lot on what you happen to be flying.
 
Thanks for the great tips everyone. I tried just about all of them, and talked my IP into spending a couple more hours before moving on to the next phase. Really made a big difference - I’m still not greasing them all in, but things are looking a lot better than they were at the beginning of the week. I owe everyone a beer.

Going to bookmark this and save the pointers for whenever I end up as a CFI myself. Appreciate your input guys.

fish314 said:
Third recommendation: in the KC-135 we did this thing called a "landing attitude demo" for guys having trouble landing. You fly down into ground effect and level off about a foot above the runway but leave power in. The airplane flies in the "flare" without ever touching down, but you get more time to see the flare that way. You could get almost a minute, maybe a minute and a half of "flaring" that way, instead of just a few seconds. Then as you near the end of the runway, go around and climb out. I'm not sure if that's a common thing in the C172 or not but run the idea by your IP and see what he thinks.
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This was a good one, and fit in well with soft field landings. Pretty much just did slow flight the whole way down, rode at the edge of the stall horn, and powered up at the end. Real good practice.
 
Rosstafari said:
Thanks for the great tips everyone. I tried just about all of them, and talked my IP into spending a couple more hours before moving on to the next phase. Really made a big difference - I’m still not greasing them all in, but things are looking a lot better than they were at the beginning of the week. I owe everyone a beer.

Going to bookmark this and save the pointers for whenever I end up as a CFI myself. Appreciate your input guys.



This was a good one, and fit in well with soft field landings. Pretty much just did slow flight the whole way down, rode at the edge of the stall horn, and powered up at the end. Real good practice.
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Glad it helped!
 
Rosstafari said:
Geez. There’s a guy who keeps his hangared right next to the flight school and really doesn’t seem to like students. “Too much ramp traffic.” Gets mad if we look at his plane for too long.

So I spend a lot of time looking at his plane.
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To be fair, student pilots are kind of a nuisance. But he knew the flight school was there when he rented the hangar.
 
Rosstafari said:
I’m still not greasing them all in, but things are looking a lot better than they were at the beginning of the week.
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A greaser isn't the standard of a good landing. I've had students grease landings 20 knots fast and had no idea why I said their landings needed work. I had a student once that I cautioned over and over and over about landing fast and she finally got the point after about the 10th landing, when during the landing roll I pulled the yoke back and the airplane took off again.

A landing should be the result of a stabilized approach all the way down from the traffic pattern, touch down at the intended landing point, at the approximate stalling speed, on the center-line, and without any drift. If you misjudge the altitude by 12" when the plane stalls, you'll arrive firmly, but much safer than if you force the airplane down at a higher airspeed. Passengers grade landing based on how softly you touch down, pilots grade landings on how stable they were from the abeam position.
 
fish314 said:
Third recommendation: in the KC-135 we did this thing called a "landing attitude demo" for guys having trouble landing. You fly down into ground effect and level off about a foot above the runway but leave power in. The airplane flies in the "flare" without ever touching down, but you get more time to see the flare that way. You could get almost a minute, maybe a minute and a half of "flaring" that way, instead of just a few seconds. Then as you near the end of the runway, go around and climb out. I'm not sure if that's a common thing in the C172 or not but run the idea by your IP and see what he thinks.

But really, more reps... just like going to the gym. As frustrating as that sounds.
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Yes, totally appropriate in 172's as well, and that is exactly the way I teach it.

I think that a lot of the problem learning landings (in light aircraft) is that the focus is almost entirely on airspeed in the pattern. Which is mostly good. The problem is when pitch control becomes the priority within 20' of the runway. Students have trouble with that, I suspect because we do a bad job teaching it.
 
Nihon_Ni said:
A greaser isn't the standard of a good landing. I've had students grease landings 20 knots fast and had no idea why I said their landings needed work. I had a student once that I cautioned over and over and over about landing fast and she finally got the point after about the 10th landing, when during the landing roll I pulled the yoke back and the airplane took off again.

A landing should be the result of a stabilized approach all the way down from the traffic pattern, touch down at the intended landing point, at the approximate stalling speed, on the center-line, and without any drift. If you misjudge the altitude by 12" when the plane stalls, you'll arrive firmly, but much safer than if you force the airplane down at a higher airspeed. Passengers grade landing based on how softly you touch down, pilots grade landings on how stable they were from the abeam position.
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I hadn’t considered that. Kind of a game changer to think about it that way. Also makes me feel better about the times when I whack the pavement a little hard after an otherwise good setup. Thanks, glad you corrected that.

drunkenbeagle said:
I think that a lot of the problem learning landings (in light aircraft) is that the focus is almost entirely on airspeed in the pattern. Which is mostly good. The problem is when pitch control becomes the priority within 20' of the runway. Students have trouble with that, I suspect because we do a bad job teaching it.
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Can you expand on that one for me? IOW, don’t neglect attention to the airspeed when the focus goes to the flare? Because I’m definitely guilty of that... seems like it’s eyes down the runway, pull the yoke, listen for the stall horn and oh okay now I’m on the ground.
 
Rosstafari said:
Can you expand on that one for me? IOW, don’t neglect attention to the airspeed when the focus goes to the flare? Because I’m definitely guilty of that... seems like it’s eyes down the runway, pull the yoke, listen for the stall horn and oh okay now I’m on the ground.
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Yeah, I'm saying exactly that - be guilty of doing it. Ignore airspeed once you are within 5 feet of the pavement. There is no reason to be looking anywhere other than the end of the runway. Keep the airplane flying as long as possible, and not touching the ground.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Yeah, I'm saying exactly that - be guilty of doing it. Ignore airspeed once you are within 5 feet of the pavement. There is no reason to be looking anywhere other than the end of the runway. Keep the airplane flying as long as possible, and not touching the ground.
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Great tip. I never look at the airspeed once I cross the threshold. At that point, I'm busy judging my height above the runway, controlling line up and drift, and rotating the airplane to the landing attitude.
 
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