Help with an approach

[BaronPete]

Hi all,

I'm a little perplexed by an approach plate I've been looking at and am looking for an assist.

It is the VOR or TACAN 22 at KTCL. FWIW, you usually have to fly full approaches in this area, as there is little radar coverage to give vectors. To that point, the approach is named the VOR or TACAN 22. If you didn't have DME and were approaching the LDK fix (IAF) from anywhere from the southwest, how would you execute the DME arc?

Furthermore, say you were approaching from the north direct Brookwood. Why doesn't it give you a procedure turn to get turned around to the 300 degree radial back towards HOLTY?

Thanks for the help!

 

[BaronPete]

I guess I should also clarify that the context I'm thinking of is if you had a lone VOR.

 

[Dugie8]

You go to OKW then to HOLTY on the 300* radial. Use 10 % of your ground speed as a WAG for the lead in radial. I.e. at 120 knots at 1.2 miles from HOLTY start your turn inbound to the 235* radial.


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[BaronPete]

You go to OKW then to HOLTY on the 300* radial. Use 10 % of your ground speed as a WAG for the lead in radial. I.e. at 120 knots at 1.2 miles from HOLTY start your turn inbound to the 235* radial.


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If proceeding to OKW from a direction requires a significant course reversal, how would you execute that? Just stay at MSA of 3700' until turned around and able to track 300* where you can then descend to 2200'? Thanks for responding!

 

[lightspeed]

This looks like a terribly designed approach IMHO.

If you didn't have DME and were approaching the LDK fix (IAF) from anywhere from the southwest, how would you execute the DME arc?

You wouldn't. LDK isn't the IAF for a DME Arc. Since there's no transition to the final approach segment, I don't get why they even labelled LDK as an IAF?!?! Since you can't transition to an arc off LDK, and you can't do a procedure turn off LDK.. the solution for approaching from the southwest is to not go to LDK, but to OKW

Problem solved.

Why doesn't it give you a procedure turn to get turned around to the 300 degree radial back towards HOLTY?

Because that's an initial approach segment, not a final approach one. Procedure turns are for reversing course. In this scenario you're only making a turn in excess of 90 degrees.

I'm thinking of is if you had a lone VOR.

Looking at the way this approach is designed, this would be impossible. If you're tracking OKW R-300 with a single VOR, how are you going to identify LDK R-055??????

If I could fix this approach with a single note, it would be "Dual VOR Reception, or DME required."

And where's the Missed Approach Holding Point? Are we in Europe?

EDIT:

Just stay at MSA of 3700' until turned around and able to track 300* where you can then descend to 2200'?

IHMO Yes.

 

[Dugie8]

If proceeding to OKW from a direction requires a significant course reversal, how would you execute that? Just stay at MSA of 3700' until turned around and able to track 300* where you can then descend to 2200'? Thanks for responding!

This isn't snarky.


So what if it is a significant course reversal? Unless you're doing more than Mach 3, your turning radius isn't that large. Fly to the VOR, maintain MSA, cross the VOR intercept course outbound, descend to leg "MEA", guesstimate time to IF, swap frequencies on VOR to inbound frequency and course, intercept inbound course.


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[BaronPete]

This looks like a terribly designed approach IMHO.

You wouldn't. LDK isn't the IAF for a DME Arc. Since there's no transition to the final approach segment, I don't get why they even labelled LDK as an IAF?!?! Since you can't transition to an arc off LDK, and you can't do a procedure turn off LDK.. the solution for approaching from the southwest is to not go to LDK, but to OKW

Problem solved.

Because that's an initial approach segment, not a final approach one. Procedure turns are for reversing course. In this scenario you're only making a turn in excess of 90 degrees.

Looking at the way this approach is designed, this would be impossible. If you're tracking OKW R-300 with a single VOR, how are you going to identify LDK R-055??????

If I could fix this approach with a single note, it would be "Dual VOR Reception, or DME required."

And where's the Missed Approach Holding Point? Are we in Europe?

Thanks for the feedback. When my instructor brought this one to me I was like "WTF am I even looking at?"

Couple of follow ups:

1) Given no radar, would you stay at 3700 while manuevering the turn to get established on the 300* radial from OKW? (Ignore this question, Dugie already answered)

2) You mentioned that you couldn't use LDK as an IAF for a DME arc (provided you had DME). If you were approaching LDK from a heading of, say, 130*, why couldn't you track the 092* outbound from LDK for 7 miles and then execute the 7nm DME arc back to the final approach course? If you can't use LDK as an IAF for the arc, then you have to use a waypoint (CAYAP or ZIVMU) which would then require RNAV, which, the approach plate makes no mention of being a requirement. Does that make sense?

 

[BaronPete]

This isn't snarky.


So what if it is a significant course reversal? Unless you're doing more than Mach 3, your turning radius isn't that large. Fly to the VOR, maintain MSA, cross the VOR intercept course outbound, descend to leg "MEA", guesstimate time to IF, swap frequencies on VOR to inbound frequency and course, intercept inbound course.


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Nah, I gotcha. Tone can read oddly in text. Understood. What you're saying makes sense, as the MSA gives a 25 nm buffer. Just wanted to confirm that anytime you're operating off a defined approach segment without radar vectors that it would be wise to be at MSA.

 

[lightspeed]

If you were approaching LDK from a heading of, say, 300*, why couldn't you track the 092* outbound from LDK for 7 miles and then execute the 7nm DME arc back to the final approach course?

You certainly could, but in that case LDK is no longer the IAF, just an enroute navaid you've used to arrive at ZIVMU (The real IAF)

which would then require RNAV, which, the approach plate makes no mention of being a requirement

You wouldn't need RNAV to find ZIVMU to begin the approach, in the previous sentence you described how to find ZIVMU without RNAV!

 

[BaronPete]

You certainly could, but in that case LDK is no longer the IAF, just an enroute navaid you've used to arrive at ZIVMU (The real IAF)

You wouldn't need RNAV to find ZIVMU to begin the approach, in the previous sentence you described how to find ZIVMU without RNAV!

Oh yeah...dur. You know when you're there once you've hit 7nm while tracking the radial.

Thanks again for the help @lightspeed and @Dugie8. Likes for everyone!

 

[lightspeed]

Why even have all these arcs and intersecting radials nonsense? Why not just put a nice comfortable hold right on Crimson (LDK)? Anybody could execute the approach with a single VOR, an Altimeter, and a stopwatch...

 

[BaronPete]

Agreed! I don't fly over there often, but I recall there being some sporty towers near the airport..maybe that's the reason.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

When I see an approach I don't understand, I look at the en route chart and expect to find an airway that brings me to a usable IAF. Is there one?

 

[BaronPete]

Fantastic point. There are airways to both of those DME waypoints that are IAFs and to the other VOR IAF.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Fantastic point. There are airways to both of those DME waypoints that are IAFs and to the other VOR IAF.

It's easy to forget. We get so used to vectors that we visualize approaches as though they stand on their own, when IAFs are almost always connected in some way to the en route environment.

 

[inigo88]

Sorry if your question has been already answered, but I need to clarify something for the future readers that seems to have been glossed over...

If you didn't have DME and were approaching the LDK fix (IAF) from anywhere from the southwest, how would you execute the DME arc?

If you didn't have a DME (or an IFR certified GPS that may stand in as DME guidance) then you should not execute the DME arcs. You seem to be fixated on how one could fly this approach with a single VOR, but not all approaches can be flown that way. The DME arc portions of this approach require additional equipment (DME).

Looking at the low altitude enroute chart L-18, CAYUP IAF is fed by V245 and ZIVMU is fed by V66, so that clears that up.

Furthermore, say you were approaching from the north direct Brookwood. Why doesn't it give you a procedure turn to get turned around to the 300 degree radial back towards HOLTY?

This question was hard to understand at first, but you really don't see procedure turns used in the IFR environment except as a course reversal to turn 180 degrees from outbound to inbound on the final approach course. Even if you are direct OKW from the north, that turn is do-able (it helps to lead the turn a bit). Coming in from the NW you'd likely be on V245 and pick up the DME arc from CAYUP.

The only thing that has me stumped on this approach is why LDK is listed as both the IAF and FAF if no course reversal is shown? I seem to recall if "NoPT" isn't depicted then the pilot may execute a course reversal at their discretion (go easy on me guys, I'm not instrument rated yet but hopefully wrapping it up soon). Since there's a total absence of "NoPT" anywhere I'm guessing a procedure turn is authorized if inbound from the south, in which case you would use LDK VOR as your IAF. The fact that the procedure turn isn't depicted is confusing however, and I wonder if it was just omitted to prevent the area of the IF at HOLTY from getting too complicated on the chart?

Edit: Since no procedure turn is depicted on the Profile View, there's also no "remain within XX nm" specified. Hence I don't think the intent is for using LDK as an IAF for a course reversal. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable executing one without knowing the dimensions of the protected area. So then the question is, why is LDK labeled as an IAF?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The only thing that has me stumped on this approach is why LDK is listed as both the IAF and FAF if no course reversal is shown? I seem to recall if "NoPT" isn't depicted then the pilot may execute a course reversal at their discretion (go easy on me guys, I'm not instrument rated yet but hopefully wrapping it up soon). Since there's a total absence of "NoPT" anywhere I'm guessing a procedure turn is authorized if inbound from the south, in which case you would use LDK VOR as your IAF. The fact that the procedure turn isn't depicted is confusing however, and I wonder if it was just omitted to prevent the area of the IF at HOLTY from getting too complicated on the chart?

Edit: Since no procedure turn is depicted on the Profile View, there's also no "remain within XX nm" specified. Hence I don't think the intent is for using LDK as an IAF for a course reversal. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable executing one without knowing the dimensions of the protected area. So then the question is, why is LDK labeled as an IAF?

If a procedure turn is not shown on the chart, there is no procedure turn and the pilot is not authorized to simply make one up. Notice even the usual NoPT notation is absent from the arcs. That's because there is no procedure turn to instruct against using.

You and others make an excellent point about showing LDK as an IAF. Don't discount the possibility of a charting error, just a mistake. Here is the regulatory source document the chart is created from. Notice LDK is not listed as an IAF. https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/acifp/NDBR/2013030826202901001-TCL-NDBR/02A_AL_TUSCALOOSA_VT22_TCL.pdf (and no procedure turn there either).

If someone is really curious about this one, write to the FAA charting office and ask. I've done it a few times. They are very responsive. Report discrepancies here.

 

[ppragman]

Hi all,

I'm a little perplexed by an approach plate I've been looking at and am looking for an assist.

It is the VOR or TACAN 22 at KTCL. FWIW, you usually have to fly full approaches in this area, as there is little radar coverage to give vectors. To that point, the approach is named the VOR or TACAN 22. If you didn't have DME and were approaching the LDK fix (IAF) from anywhere from the southwest, how would you execute the DME arc?

Furthermore, say you were approaching from the north direct Brookwood. Why doesn't it give you a procedure turn to get turned around to the 300 degree radial back towards HOLTY?

Thanks for the help!

You can't. You'd have to go to OKW beforehand if you don't have DME. Though if you could get radar vectors onto the R-055 radial and " radar contact lost, maintain 2200 until HOLTY, cleared straight in approach VOR 22 to the Tuscaloosa Airport" then I'd probably just...kinda...ya know...ignore the obvious problems with that and fly the approach rather than DEMAND that I be taken out to a proper IAF - even outside of radar contact.

 

[ppragman]

It's also worth noting that despite being completely illegal...if you're out of radar contact and approaching from the southwest, and you executed an 80-260 to the right immediately after HOLTY...you're not going to hit anything if they cleared you for the approach. Like I said, totally illicit...but you're not going to kill anyone doing that.

 

[BaronPete]

I emailed the charting office. Thanks for providing that resource, @MidlifeFlyer. I'm also working on my instrument rating, so this has been a great thread.