ahw01
Well-Known Member
I do. Why should this be handled any differently.
Hegseth lifts suspension, cancels investigation of Apache pilots for buzzing Kid Rock’s house.
- Thread starter GypsyPilot
- Start date
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
The FAA has no jurisdiction over military flight operations and can take no action against a military pilots. Military pilots aren’t required to hold any FAA-issued certs.
ahw01
Well-Known Member
That's not what I'm saying. I'm asking why what happened to M.L. cant happen to them?
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
At this point, we have no idea if these pilots violated any standing orders or flight restrictions.
It’s a rush to judgement to assume they are guilty of anything.
Military units have a lot of discretion when it comes to planning training flights.
It’s possible that no specific orders or rules were broken and the commanding officer is only guilty of poor decision-making that reflected poorly on the Army, a subjective and post-facto standard.
While flat-hatting is not permitted, military pilots commonly create photo opportunities for friends and family.
In the Lunken case, a civilian pilot, flying under the jurisdiction of the FAA, violated FAA rules by endangering the public flying under the bridge.
If you want to compare apples to apples, the Executive Officer of Navy squadron VAH-123 lost his command opportunity as a consequence of flying under Deception Pass Bridge.
GolfChuck
Trustworthy Source
Thank you!
Can we talk about how these same helicopters allegedly hovered near a "No Kings" protest? That could easily be determined to be an attempt at intimidation and would clearly be a violation of the US Constitution. No one gaf about Kid Rock @Pilot Fighter
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Well, apparently a bunch of folks GAF about the Kid Rock fly-by.
Beyond that, operating over a densely populated area for no good reason should demand an explanation and have consequences. Posse Comitatus should not be eroded.
Here’s (bolded) what I have a problem with (from the original post’s article):
"… @USArmy pilots suspension LIFTED. No punishment. No investigation. Carry on, patriots," Hegseth wroteTuesday on X from his personal account.
Just hours earlier, an Army spokesperson said the crew had been suspended from flying while the Army conducts a formal investigation into why the AH-64 helicopters flew near the singer's Nashville house and a "No Kings" protest during a training mission over the weekend.
…
An Army spokesperson said Monday that the branch had launched an administrative review. "Army aviators must adhere to strict safety standards, professionalism, and established flight regulations," Maj. Montrell Russell said, and the review would "assess the mission and verify compliance with regulations and airspace requirements. Appropriate action will be taken if any violations are found."
Maj. Jonathon Bless, a spokesperson for the 101st Airborne Division, also said the command had opened an investigation.
"… @USArmy pilots suspension LIFTED. No punishment. No investigation. Carry on, patriots," Hegseth wroteTuesday on X from his personal account.
Just hours earlier, an Army spokesperson said the crew had been suspended from flying while the Army conducts a formal investigation into why the AH-64 helicopters flew near the singer's Nashville house and a "No Kings" protest during a training mission over the weekend.
…
An Army spokesperson said Monday that the branch had launched an administrative review. "Army aviators must adhere to strict safety standards, professionalism, and established flight regulations," Maj. Montrell Russell said, and the review would "assess the mission and verify compliance with regulations and airspace requirements. Appropriate action will be taken if any violations are found."
Maj. Jonathon Bless, a spokesperson for the 101st Airborne Division, also said the command had opened an investigation.
ahw01
Well-Known Member
Exactly, in the civilized world most militaries follow civilian regulations for aircraft registration, type training and so on. this is where this should be headed. War zone rules don’t apply in CONUS.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
There’s no laws by the laws of physics and the laws others force you to follow. There’s no rules and there are no “real adults.” Just us.
If you don’t force some laws (ultimately with the threat of violence), then only the laws of physics govern. The selective enforcement we are seeing now is designed to encourage certain types of behavior and let physics sort out the rest.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Debating whether or not a regulation was broken, or what ruleset the flight should have been operating under, is a secondary issue. These are all things to be sorted.
Through proper channels and processes. Those exist for very good reasons.
The Army is not being allowed to manage its own processes and people. This is the central, and I would argue, more serious issue at hand.
Through proper channels and processes. Those exist for very good reasons.
The Army is not being allowed to manage its own processes and people. This is the central, and I would argue, more serious issue at hand.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
This.
@Pilot Fighter I don't think most folks are rushing to any judgement per se. Poor optics of the incident aside, an investigation was welcomed & very much warranted. However due to SECDEF's apparent lack of restraint or honor, any sense of reason was unilaterally squashed.
Despite the admin's desires, they cannot rule by fiat and we shouldn't stand for it.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
Few laws protect our democracy and freedoms more than Posse Comitatus.
I’d be interested if an Army officer followed an illegal order to perform police actions. That’s court martial territory.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
The fly by Kid Rocks house doesnt seem like a big deal to me honestly. Rural area, kept a fair distance or a helicopter. I dont know if it was pre arranged or only started to record after they arrived. Couldve been a landmark an instructor likes to use for some reason or another. I know when I was a CFI I had certain places to perform certain manuevers like turns around a point. This just doesnt seem like a big deal. Its a wild thing to get worked up about with all the rest of the things going on.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
People in here debating, "but it is illegal for them to do this"
<the world's largest sign>
there are no rules to this stuff guys. They have the power, so they make the rules and selectively enforce them to get even greater power. You guys are still falling for the "is-ought" fallacy here, y'all are right that this should be a problem (especially any potential posse comitatus concerns), but you must understand, I implore you guys, there are no rules and norms anymore in any aspect of society. The sooner we realize this the better. As you scramble to say "think of the courts" or "big army should be able to manage itself" they're on to the next latest and greatest shattering of the status quo.
They're in y'all's OODA loop and it shows.
<the world's largest sign>
there are no rules to this stuff guys. They have the power, so they make the rules and selectively enforce them to get even greater power. You guys are still falling for the "is-ought" fallacy here, y'all are right that this should be a problem (especially any potential posse comitatus concerns), but you must understand, I implore you guys, there are no rules and norms anymore in any aspect of society. The sooner we realize this the better. As you scramble to say "think of the courts" or "big army should be able to manage itself" they're on to the next latest and greatest shattering of the status quo.
They're in y'all's OODA loop and it shows.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Also, quite possibly this and they got a little too close:
"Yo, is that Kid Rock? Holy • it is! Dude get your camera!"
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
They well knew where he lived.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Sure, but also, you know, "dude I gotta get a picture" - unprofessional as hell, but not the craziest thing in the last couple years.