Hawker Down near AKR
- Thread starter ComplexHiAv8r
- Start date
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Well never having flown a Hawker I didn't want to say much...but yeah those guys did not sound on top of it.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
You can put them in any airplane, they just didn't sound like they were on the same page and they didn't sound like they knew what was going on.
obx
Well-Known Member
Sounds like the CA was doing an awful lot of "mentoring." The transcript almost reads like a CFII instructing an instrument student. The CA should have probably taken the jet from the FO. The FO was ten years older than the CA. I wonder if that dynamic was an issue in this situation.
Also, I've read other articles that say that the FO was fired from his previous job due to training problems.
Tragic and avoidable.
Also, I've read other articles that say that the FO was fired from his previous job due to training problems.
Tragic and avoidable.
JustinS
Well-Known Member
Sounds like the CA was doing an awful lot of "mentoring." The transcript almost reads like a CFII instructing an instrument student. The CA should have probably taken the jet from the FO. The FO was ten years older than the CA. I wonder if that dynamic was an issue in this situation.
Also, I've read other articles that say that the FO was fired from his previous job due to training problems.
Tragic and avoidable.
In my head I was screaming "take the controls!!!" I hated reading that transcript play out. The CA had valid concerns before they even began the decent as they were already close to VREF with flaps still to go and getting slow. Sounds like the CA jumped in, but by the time he did it was too late.
Reminds me of other accidents particularly where the FO didn't speak up or step in and watched things play out tragically. I try to put myself in the situation *as a PM in that situation what would I do?*
RIP to those lost aboard that flight.
pressclick
Well-Known Member
So this raised my eyebrows a couple of notches.
After reading your comment I went back to the NTSB docket and did some more browsing.
They were BOTH fired from their previous employers - the captain for missing training and the FO for missing training/extreme deficiencies in meeting standards. Also, the CA was written up in 2014 for not complying with ATC instructions.
http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/h...aed3b2bbe-092E1FC0-D6A4-CC0D-85F7D475A54EB400
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
One of those documents states that he really struggled through a check ride, and passed with a Fed conducting the exam. How can he pass in front of an inspector yet be fired a short period later for poor performance? Sounds like there should be a spotlight on that fed right now.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
The real tragedy here is the loss of the passenger's lives. RIP
If you're in the flying business for more than a year, think we can all state that we either know or have flown with pilots just like these two. They slip through the cracks and no one steps in until it's way to late. I'm not a big fan of lawsuits but Execuflight has a lot to explain in this one; shoddy background checks, no follow up with previous employers, no PRIA check, lame training, etc.
I've flown with this FO, well not this EXACT FO but one with the same mental capacity, maturity, etc. Although he has a certificate, he just "didn't get it". The shame of it is that ALL of his issues (including falsification of his pilot log book) were presented to the company president and all were swept under the rug. I guess my only hope is that he dies alone in the crash and doesn't take anyone with him. However, within my lifetime, I fully expect to read that he has killed himself or others while operating as a pilot
If you're in the flying business for more than a year, think we can all state that we either know or have flown with pilots just like these two. They slip through the cracks and no one steps in until it's way to late. I'm not a big fan of lawsuits but Execuflight has a lot to explain in this one; shoddy background checks, no follow up with previous employers, no PRIA check, lame training, etc.
I've flown with this FO, well not this EXACT FO but one with the same mental capacity, maturity, etc. Although he has a certificate, he just "didn't get it". The shame of it is that ALL of his issues (including falsification of his pilot log book) were presented to the company president and all were swept under the rug. I guess my only hope is that he dies alone in the crash and doesn't take anyone with him. However, within my lifetime, I fully expect to read that he has killed himself or others while operating as a pilot
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Bigger picture, I think there's something to be said about trusting your gut regarding pilots and operators. I went to get my multi with a company in Central Florida. Flew two hours and quit. Called my wife and said that I just didn't feel safe - there were a lot of red flags with the plane, the operation, individual people, the training standards (or lack thereof).
A couple years later the plane crashed into a warehouse killing both a student and a pilot from the school.
Nark
Macho Superpilot
You of all people know that is anecdotal.
People look at some operations and call them reckless, i.e. Air shows or Bush flying, yet are safer than some of the 121 operations I've seen. (Brand new FO's on IOE who should not have passed training...)
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Oh it's wholly anecdotal. And everyone has their own individual thresholds. It's one thing to fly planes you don't trust because you're trying to advance your career and it's an important stepping stone. It's an entirely different thing when you're just a weekend renter who has no desire to die doing what they love.
nocturnalaviator
AI Jedi
I stopped reading after the confusion over how cloud bases are reported. Jesus christ.
Champcar
Well-Known Member
Even if you're not sure (which is nuts in itself), just fly a stable approach and if you don't see the runway environment when you're supposed to then go missed. Its not that hard ( yes I know, hindsight and oversimplification). This crew was flying from the tail.
PS you should keep reading, it gets to a point where they are arguing about the speed of the aircraft. The CAPTAIN actually says "I don't want to stall "
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SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
You mean the captain.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
I have this exact issue as well. I am just waiting to hear about the captain at my first charter company. I just hope he goes out alone, but he probably won't. He is 65 years old now, has over 30,000 hours and is one of the worst pilots I have ever flown with. He failed multiple checkrides when he tried to go from Lears to a Hawker at the same company. He also failed recurrent in the hawker after he had been flying it for 6 months. They put him right back in a Lear to fly charter, and somehow he is now back in the hawker without going back to training. This shady crap needs to be stopped. That's just one issue regarding this company as well, there are multiple other red flags that just go unnoticed.
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
If my memory is correct, AoA indicators are a requirement for part 25 aircraft.
TrustMeI'maPilot
Well-Known Member
It's amazing, but yes.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
They are not required if memory serves me correct. The Lears I flew didn't have AOA but they had stall indicators or some crap.
Either way, the shaker is a warning of an impending stall. Whatever happened to recover at the first sign of a stall?
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