Hawker Down near AKR

Expert: Pilots of doomed plane may have flown too low to get glimpse of the runway


Before the doomed Hawker jet crashed on Tuesday, killing all nine people onboard, it was supposed to follow a specific path to the runway at Akron Fulton International Airport, as it flew through fog and rain.

Whether the pilots followed the precise procedures – laid out in approach charts – will be one of the primary questions the National Transportation Safety Board will seek to answer in its investigation into the horrific accident.

Because of the poor visibility, the pilots were flying on instruments when they were cleared – by air traffic controllers – to make what’s called a “localizer approach” to Runway 25, which aims toward the southwest.

That approach called for the plane to line up with the runway, descend to about 1,240 feet above the ground and fly over a specific radio fix 4.2 miles from the airport. Then the plane was supposed to continue descending until it was 492 feet above the ground.


Investigators working to identify Akron plane crash victims, including seven from Boca Raton real estate firm

One major clue that indicates the pilots might have descended below the critical altitude – or what pilots call “busting minimums” – is that it clipped power lines more than two miles northeast of the airport – before it plowed into the ground, left wing first, and then struck an apartment building.

Another hint is that the flight crew made no distress calls, which are usually made when pilots are dealing with an emergency, such as a mechanical problem.

Robert Breiling, a Boca Raton-based aviation accident analyst, said the pilots might have been “scud running,” or attempting to see the runway through the clouds.


Wreckage, records, video may hold clues to Ohio plane crash

“That’s my guess,” he said. “The pilot was trying to fly by visual flight rules and got lower and lower – until he got too low.”

The safety board will attempt to see if the cockpit voice recorder sheds any clues on how the pilots conducted the approach. While the agency said it will look into all aspects of the flight, Bella Dinh-Zarr, the safety board’s vice chairman, said weather will be key aspect of the investigation.

Breiling said it’s possible the pilots were on a specific time schedule and under pressure to get the plane on the ground as soon as possible. He said that’s the reason behind many charter flight accidents.

As a result, charter operations have a substantially higher accident rate than corporate jet operations, where companies operate their own aircraft. Charter pilots are “pushed” harder to complete flights – despite factors like weather and maintenance problems – than corporate pilots, Breiling said.

“If charter pilots don’t get to their destination, they don’t get paid,” he said. “So they may push it, something a corporate operator wouldn’t do.”

Kevin Durkin, an aviation attorney based Chicago, said if the pilots in Tuesday's accident weren’t dealing with an emergency, their cockpit instruments should have indicated that they were too low.

Also, he said the plane might have had a terrain warning system, which would have sounded. For now, he said the cockpit voice recorder probably will provide the biggest clues as to what happened.

“If there are two pilots onboard and they’ve having a problem, they’re probably talking about it,” he said.

Tuesday’s accident is similar to one in July 2008, where a Hawker jet carrying two pilots and six passengers, including casino and construction executives, crashed after attempting to land at the Owatonna airport in southern Minnesota. All eight occupants perished.

The safety board blamed the pilots of that flight for attempting to lift back into the air after the plane had touched down - with too little runway left.

That accident shows that the root cause of a crash might not be what it initially seems, said Brian Alexander, a legal aviation expert based in New York.

Alexander, a military-trained pilot, said aviation accidents often are the result of several factors going sour, “a series of dominoes that come together.”

In the most recent accident, he said the weather might have compounded a cockpit emergency, “adding to the pilot’s burden.”

The Hawker’s flap and speed brake system, designed to slow down the plane while approaching an airport, also might have played a role, he said.

For instance, he said those systems might have caused the plane to fly too slow, leading to a stall – where the wings lose lift. Or, he said, if flaps on one side of the plane failed to come down, that could have made the flight uncontrollable.

"It's important to do a complete investigation of an aircraft and all its systems, as well other possibilities, such as weather and crew experience," he said.


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/palm-beach/sfl-pilot-procedures-ntsb-20151112-story.html
 
Expert: Pilots of doomed plane may have flown too low to get glimpse of the runway


Before the doomed Hawker jet crashed on Tuesday, killing all nine people onboard, it was supposed to follow a specific path to the runway at Akron Fulton International Airport, as it flew through fog and rain.

Whether the pilots followed the precise procedures – laid out in approach charts – will be one of the primary questions the National Transportation Safety Board will seek to answer in its investigation into the horrific accident.

Because of the poor visibility, the pilots were flying on instruments when they were cleared – by air traffic controllers – to make what’s called a “localizer approach” to Runway 25, which aims toward the southwest.

That approach called for the plane to line up with the runway, descend to about 1,240 feet above the ground and fly over a specific radio fix 4.2 miles from the airport. Then the plane was supposed to continue descending until it was 492 feet above the ground.


Investigators working to identify Akron plane crash victims, including seven from Boca Raton real estate firm

One major clue that indicates the pilots might have descended below the critical altitude – or what pilots call “busting minimums” – is that it clipped power lines more than two miles northeast of the airport – before it plowed into the ground, left wing first, and then struck an apartment building.

Another hint is that the flight crew made no distress calls, which are usually made when pilots are dealing with an emergency, such as a mechanical problem.

Robert Breiling, a Boca Raton-based aviation accident analyst, said the pilots might have been “scud running,” or attempting to see the runway through the clouds.


Wreckage, records, video may hold clues to Ohio plane crash

“That’s my guess,” he said. “The pilot was trying to fly by visual flight rules and got lower and lower – until he got too low.”

The safety board will attempt to see if the cockpit voice recorder sheds any clues on how the pilots conducted the approach. While the agency said it will look into all aspects of the flight, Bella Dinh-Zarr, the safety board’s vice chairman, said weather will be key aspect of the investigation.

Breiling said it’s possible the pilots were on a specific time schedule and under pressure to get the plane on the ground as soon as possible. He said that’s the reason behind many charter flight accidents.

As a result, charter operations have a substantially higher accident rate than corporate jet operations, where companies operate their own aircraft. Charter pilots are “pushed” harder to complete flights – despite factors like weather and maintenance problems – than corporate pilots, Breiling said.

“If charter pilots don’t get to their destination, they don’t get paid,” he said. “So they may push it, something a corporate operator wouldn’t do.”

Kevin Durkin, an aviation attorney based Chicago, said if the pilots in Tuesday's accident weren’t dealing with an emergency, their cockpit instruments should have indicated that they were too low.

Also, he said the plane might have had a terrain warning system, which would have sounded. For now, he said the cockpit voice recorder probably will provide the biggest clues as to what happened.

“If there are two pilots onboard and they’ve having a problem, they’re probably talking about it,” he said.

Tuesday’s accident is similar to one in July 2008, where a Hawker jet carrying two pilots and six passengers, including casino and construction executives, crashed after attempting to land at the Owatonna airport in southern Minnesota. All eight occupants perished.

The safety board blamed the pilots of that flight for attempting to lift back into the air after the plane had touched down - with too little runway left.

That accident shows that the root cause of a crash might not be what it initially seems, said Brian Alexander, a legal aviation expert based in New York.

Alexander, a military-trained pilot, said aviation accidents often are the result of several factors going sour, “a series of dominoes that come together.”

In the most recent accident, he said the weather might have compounded a cockpit emergency, “adding to the pilot’s burden.”

The Hawker’s flap and speed brake system, designed to slow down the plane while approaching an airport, also might have played a role, he said.

For instance, he said those systems might have caused the plane to fly too slow, leading to a stall – where the wings lose lift. Or, he said, if flaps on one side of the plane failed to come down, that could have made the flight uncontrollable.

"It's important to do a complete investigation of an aircraft and all its systems, as well other possibilities, such as weather and crew experience," he said.


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/palm-beach/sfl-pilot-procedures-ntsb-20151112-story.html

This expert is spouting a bunch of stupid "mess"
:)
 
Expert: Pilots of doomed plane may have flown too low to get glimpse of the runway


Before the doomed Hawker jet crashed on Tuesday, killing all nine people onboard, it was supposed to follow a specific path to the runway at Akron Fulton International Airport, as it flew through fog and rain.

Whether the pilots followed the precise procedures – laid out in approach charts – will be one of the primary questions the National Transportation Safety Board will seek to answer in its investigation into the horrific accident.

Because of the poor visibility, the pilots were flying on instruments when they were cleared – by air traffic controllers – to make what’s called a “localizer approach” to Runway 25, which aims toward the southwest.

That approach called for the plane to line up with the runway, descend to about 1,240 feet above the ground and fly over a specific radio fix 4.2 miles from the airport. Then the plane was supposed to continue descending until it was 492 feet above the ground.


Investigators working to identify Akron plane crash victims, including seven from Boca Raton real estate firm

One major clue that indicates the pilots might have descended below the critical altitude – or what pilots call “busting minimums” – is that it clipped power lines more than two miles northeast of the airport – before it plowed into the ground, left wing first, and then struck an apartment building.

Another hint is that the flight crew made no distress calls, which are usually made when pilots are dealing with an emergency, such as a mechanical problem.

Robert Breiling, a Boca Raton-based aviation accident analyst, said the pilots might have been “scud running,” or attempting to see the runway through the clouds.


Wreckage, records, video may hold clues to Ohio plane crash

“That’s my guess,” he said. “The pilot was trying to fly by visual flight rules and got lower and lower – until he got too low.”

The safety board will attempt to see if the cockpit voice recorder sheds any clues on how the pilots conducted the approach. While the agency said it will look into all aspects of the flight, Bella Dinh-Zarr, the safety board’s vice chairman, said weather will be key aspect of the investigation.

Breiling said it’s possible the pilots were on a specific time schedule and under pressure to get the plane on the ground as soon as possible. He said that’s the reason behind many charter flight accidents.

As a result, charter operations have a substantially higher accident rate than corporate jet operations, where companies operate their own aircraft. Charter pilots are “pushed” harder to complete flights – despite factors like weather and maintenance problems – than corporate pilots, Breiling said.

“If charter pilots don’t get to their destination, they don’t get paid,” he said. “So they may push it, something a corporate operator wouldn’t do.”

Kevin Durkin, an aviation attorney based Chicago, said if the pilots in Tuesday's accident weren’t dealing with an emergency, their cockpit instruments should have indicated that they were too low.

Also, he said the plane might have had a terrain warning system, which would have sounded. For now, he said the cockpit voice recorder probably will provide the biggest clues as to what happened.

“If there are two pilots onboard and they’ve having a problem, they’re probably talking about it,” he said.

Tuesday’s accident is similar to one in July 2008, where a Hawker jet carrying two pilots and six passengers, including casino and construction executives, crashed after attempting to land at the Owatonna airport in southern Minnesota. All eight occupants perished.

The safety board blamed the pilots of that flight for attempting to lift back into the air after the plane had touched down - with too little runway left.

That accident shows that the root cause of a crash might not be what it initially seems, said Brian Alexander, a legal aviation expert based in New York.

Alexander, a military-trained pilot, said aviation accidents often are the result of several factors going sour, “a series of dominoes that come together.”

In the most recent accident, he said the weather might have compounded a cockpit emergency, “adding to the pilot’s burden.”

The Hawker’s flap and speed brake system, designed to slow down the plane while approaching an airport, also might have played a role, he said.

For instance, he said those systems might have caused the plane to fly too slow, leading to a stall – where the wings lose lift. Or, he said, if flaps on one side of the plane failed to come down, that could have made the flight uncontrollable.

"It's important to do a complete investigation of an aircraft and all its systems, as well other possibilities, such as weather and crew experience," he said.


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/palm-beach/sfl-pilot-procedures-ntsb-20151112-story.html


I would like to be an "aviation expert". I could crank out tidbits like that, maybe fifty times before my bacon is done frying in the morning.
 
Much like some "experts" on here as well. People who were alive on Monday are now dead and we, as a JC community, couldn't even make it a week before starting to speculate, argue, and belittle each other over the cause of this accident. Zip up your fly's gentlemen... the schlort measuring contest is over.

There's nothing wrong with speculating, as long as it's done in a respectful manner.
 
Sad deal. Rip to the victims . But since this thread is totally derailed:

Alexander, a military-trained pilot, said aviation accidents often are the result of several factors going sour, “a series of dominoes that come together.”


Ice Cube says dominos coming together is not an example of factors going sour.

GIFSoup
 
Expert: Pilots of doomed plane may have flown too low to get glimpse of the runway


Before the doomed Hawker jet crashed on Tuesday, killing all nine people onboard, it was supposed to follow a specific path to the runway at Akron Fulton International Airport, as it flew through fog and rain.

Whether the pilots followed the precise procedures – laid out in approach charts – will be one of the primary questions the National Transportation Safety Board will seek to answer in its investigation into the horrific accident.

Because of the poor visibility, the pilots were flying on instruments when they were cleared – by air traffic controllers – to make what’s called a “localizer approach” to Runway 25, which aims toward the southwest.

That approach called for the plane to line up with the runway, descend to about 1,240 feet above the ground and fly over a specific radio fix 4.2 miles from the airport. Then the plane was supposed to continue descending until it was 492 feet above the ground.


Investigators working to identify Akron plane crash victims, including seven from Boca Raton real estate firm

One major clue that indicates the pilots might have descended below the critical altitude – or what pilots call “busting minimums” – is that it clipped power lines more than two miles northeast of the airport – before it plowed into the ground, left wing first, and then struck an apartment building.

Another hint is that the flight crew made no distress calls, which are usually made when pilots are dealing with an emergency, such as a mechanical problem.

Robert Breiling, a Boca Raton-based aviation accident analyst, said the pilots might have been “scud running,” or attempting to see the runway through the clouds.


Wreckage, records, video may hold clues to Ohio plane crash

“That’s my guess,” he said. “The pilot was trying to fly by visual flight rules and got lower and lower – until he got too low.”

The safety board will attempt to see if the cockpit voice recorder sheds any clues on how the pilots conducted the approach. While the agency said it will look into all aspects of the flight, Bella Dinh-Zarr, the safety board’s vice chairman, said weather will be key aspect of the investigation.

Breiling said it’s possible the pilots were on a specific time schedule and under pressure to get the plane on the ground as soon as possible. He said that’s the reason behind many charter flight accidents.

As a result, charter operations have a substantially higher accident rate than corporate jet operations, where companies operate their own aircraft. Charter pilots are “pushed” harder to complete flights – despite factors like weather and maintenance problems – than corporate pilots, Breiling said.

“If charter pilots don’t get to their destination, they don’t get paid,” he said. “So they may push it, something a corporate operator wouldn’t do.”

Kevin Durkin, an aviation attorney based Chicago, said if the pilots in Tuesday's accident weren’t dealing with an emergency, their cockpit instruments should have indicated that they were too low.

Also, he said the plane might have had a terrain warning system, which would have sounded. For now, he said the cockpit voice recorder probably will provide the biggest clues as to what happened.

“If there are two pilots onboard and they’ve having a problem, they’re probably talking about it,” he said.

Tuesday’s accident is similar to one in July 2008, where a Hawker jet carrying two pilots and six passengers, including casino and construction executives, crashed after attempting to land at the Owatonna airport in southern Minnesota. All eight occupants perished.

The safety board blamed the pilots of that flight for attempting to lift back into the air after the plane had touched down - with too little runway left.

That accident shows that the root cause of a crash might not be what it initially seems, said Brian Alexander, a legal aviation expert based in New York.

Alexander, a military-trained pilot, said aviation accidents often are the result of several factors going sour, “a series of dominoes that come together.”

In the most recent accident, he said the weather might have compounded a cockpit emergency, “adding to the pilot’s burden.”

The Hawker’s flap and speed brake system, designed to slow down the plane while approaching an airport, also might have played a role, he said.

For instance, he said those systems might have caused the plane to fly too slow, leading to a stall – where the wings lose lift. Or, he said, if flaps on one side of the plane failed to come down, that could have made the flight uncontrollable.

"It's important to do a complete investigation of an aircraft and all its systems, as well other possibilities, such as weather and crew experience," he said.


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/palm-beach/sfl-pilot-procedures-ntsb-20151112-story.html
My face hurts after reading that
 
My face hurts after reading that

Ditto.

Odd to think than an approach to minimums is seen as scud running.

Real investigative reporting. Wow, Edward R. Murrow is gleefully smiling from Journalistic Valhalla.
 
Odd to think than an approach to minimums is seen as scud running.

I thought the "clipping power lines 2 miles short of the runway" was the part that is seen as scud running.

Usually the term refers to flying around ridiculously low to avoid flying IFR, but busting mins can just as easily qualify. Neither of those mean "flying an approach to mins".
 
I thought the "clipping power lines 2 miles short of the runway" was the part that is seen as scud running.

Usually the term refers to flying around ridiculously low to avoid flying IFR, but busting mins can just as easily qualify. Neither of those mean "flying an approach to mins".

That was probably the description to the lay reader of a duck under maneuver, I figure.
 
I thought the "clipping power lines 2 miles short of the runway" was the part that is seen as scud running.

Usually the term refers to flying around ridiculously low to avoid flying IFR, but busting mins can just as easily qualify. Neither of those mean "flying an approach to mins".

I really have no solid idea what events transpired to bring the aircraft that low. Even the American Cali accident can be "hit the ground", but without the causal factors surrounding the aircraft hitting the mountainside, uhh, well, you know what I mean.

PBS has an attractive lady doing woodwork so I lost my train of thought.
 
I really have no solid idea what events transpired to bring the aircraft that low. Even the American Cali accident can be "hit the ground", but without the causal factors surrounding the aircraft hitting the mountainside, uhh, well, you know what I mean.

PBS has an attractive lady doing woodwork so I lost my train of thought.

When you say woodwork...?
 
PBS has an attractive lady doing woodwork so I lost my train of thought.

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