Hawker Down near AKR

BobDDuck said:
While I certainly agree that weather, mechanical and crew rest issues will certainly come in to play in the investigation that will occur...
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3 of those quotes are from the derailed discussion. Yes, Execuflight is a garbage operator. No I do not have a vendetta against them. But I have worked for companies like them, and I know how they operate. 9 people are dead, the Swiss cheese holes lined up, and I just hope that investigators find out why. We can say wait for the NTSB and all that, but something or a number of things had to be wrong for 2 ATP pilots with a combined total of over 10,000 hours to fly a good airplane into the ground on an instrument approach. It isn't that unreasonable to start head scratching, especially when you worked for operators where you knew it was only a matter of time until one became a lawn dart. Again, I am not assuming anything, but I think it might be a contributing factor.
 
somewhereupthere said:
Okay, I can take one on the chin when need be. Crew had hours.. not the scenario I presented. My bad. I've actually enjoyed some of the things I've read here, and even the bashings have been helpful to come back to more sound logic, that it is in fact unfair to
JUMP-TO-CONCLUSIONS-MAT.jpg


That said, I would like to proffer this:
PDF File Containing Side Profile of the accident approach.

Please keep in mind that this profile is built using Flightaware track history, which may be inaccurate. As such, you can take this with a grain of salt, and assume this NOT to be the actual flightpath taken by the accident aircraft.

Edited to add this: If one assumes the gross glidepath to be accurate, even remotely, then the distance at which MDA was intercepted to accident site is 0.55nm. If ground speed of the Flightaware track history is accurate, and was constant to the accident site, then this means 15.6 seconds elapsed from MDA interception to the point of the accident site.
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Ok now you are really a noob
 
FWIW I always find these kinds of tragedies disturbing and perplexing, much like the GIV that went off the end in KBED, the question being how does this happen with an experienced flight crew in a very capable bizz jet?

There are so many questions in this one I wouldn't even venture to speculate. Sad all around and I hope there is a definitive smoking gun at the end of the investigation be it human or mechanical factors...

Bp244
 
In the case of BED, It happens when you have minimum training standards, and no structure in the cockpit. Anyone can forget a memory item, but was the checklist utilized? Was an effective SOP in place that was developed for that aircraft, and trained to the crew? Were they rested?

BED was sloppy piloting unfortunatly. And when an accident like that happens, layers always get peeled back. Colgan 3407 is another perfect example. I remember how heated that discussion was on here when the smoking hole was still warm. In the case of Colgan, and BED, the initial rumblings on some probable causes were correct in the end. It doesn't make speculating right, and I am guilty of it, but I am very very eager to see what the NTSB comes up with.
 
I honestly can't read through all 13 pages of this thread, I made it to 2 and my eye started twitching. Speculation and MMQBing is fine if the end goal is to learn something. Sadly I think some on here just want to see if their gumshoe work in the first 15 minutes ends up being correct down the road, knowledge gained be damned. Usually the same people that hang a crew also don't think it could happen to them. Spoiler alert, everyone makes mistakes, even you.

I lost a friend in this accident, no he was not one of the pilots. Does that change my view on it, I'd like to think I look at every accident the same. I don't care whose theory was correct. I want to see the final so I can learn something. Maybe gain another tool in my toolbox that will help me break the chain when I inevitably head down the same road.

I'm currently in the process of hammering out the ground floor of knowledge and procedures at my new airline, cases like this make the long nights and reading countless pages worth it.
 
Sadly, the more time you spend in aviation the more stories about losing friends stack up.

For a few years you keep count and then one day, you stop counting. Macabre? Absolutely,

One thing I have learned is that, at the end of the day, it absolutely CAN happen to you in that weekend 150 ride or even flying an A380 when you're mustachioed and grey. We're human, we're going to speculate, but the most important part is knowing the difference between speculation and factual analysis.

Everyone is prone to rookie mistakes. Everyone is also prone to the unrecoverable "hit a sea serpent at FL410 and the wings popped off" as well.
 
I'm sorry to hear about your loss, @mikecweb .




When you end up posting your qualifications and flight experience totals to try to prove you have enough experience to back up your rampant internet speculation, you're doing it wrong. Seriously. Stop it.

somewhereupthere said:
Some of you guys are good at putting bait in the water, but otherwise have nothing intelligent or substantive to add to the discussion. Others, such as MikeD, have articulated extremely pertinent points. When you can carry on a discussion without constantly being a hater, then chime in. But. Haters gonna hate... Carry on...
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Not a hater... I'm just smart enough to know that I'm stupid.
 
mikecweb said:
I honestly can't read through all 13 pages of this thread, I made it to 2 and my eye started twitching. Speculation and MMQBing is fine if the end goal is to learn something. Sadly I think some on here just want to see if their gumshoe work in the first 15 minutes ends up being correct down the road, knowledge gained be damned. Usually the same people that hang a crew also don't think it could happen to them. Spoiler alert, everyone makes mistakes, even you.

I lost a friend in this accident, no he was not one of the pilots. Does that change my view on it, I'd like to think I look at every accident the same. I don't care whose theory was correct. I want to see the final so I can learn something. Maybe gain another tool in my toolbox that will help me break the chain when I inevitably head down the same road.

I'm currently in the process of hammering out the ground floor of knowledge and procedures at my new airline, cases like this make the long nights and reading countless pages worth it.
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Sorry for your lost mike.
 
mikecweb said:
I honestly can't read through all 13 pages of this thread, I made it to 2 and my eye started twitching. Speculation and MMQBing is fine if the end goal is to learn something. Sadly I think some on here just want to see if their gumshoe work in the first 15 minutes ends up being correct down the road, knowledge gained be damned. Usually the same people that hang a crew also don't think it could happen to them. Spoiler alert, everyone makes mistakes, even you.

I lost a friend in this accident, no he was not one of the pilots. Does that change my view on it, I'd like to think I look at every accident the same. I don't care whose theory was correct. I want to see the final so I can learn something. Maybe gain another tool in my toolbox that will help me break the chain when I inevitably head down the same road.

I'm currently in the process of hammering out the ground floor of knowledge and procedures at my new airline, cases like this make the long nights and reading countless pages worth it.
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Very sincerely sorry for you.
 
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