Having doubts...

[dpgtime]

I was set to go to ATP...However I never felt comfortable with it....In this economy and the fact that I am not interested in rushing (would have taken the self-paced) I feel I can get the job done at an FBO and do it in the same time frame. The Multi time I could build later and fly for cheaper on a 172 or 150..I even have access to a 150 for time building...TT is TT no matter what you fly. Also the fact that ATP is 50,000 dollars and the CFI program is not worth it seeing that they fired a ton of CFI's and the airlines aren't hiring with 250 TT in the near future. Where is the value when they charged less 1 year ago and you got the full benefit of ATP. I have also seen posts stating that ATP charges somewhere like 360 dollars per hour when you calculate it out...Is this true..Anyone ever calculated the FBO route compared to ATP..What is the savings doing it at an FBO or ATP.

Thanks!

 

[skydog]

Sounds like you have already made up your mind. The other advanatage to training at an FBO is that you can stop anytime you like. If you get part way through your training and decide professional aviation is not for you, you are not out the money, except what you've already paid, of course.

 

[c172captain]

(From ATPs website)

$49,999 for 10 month Self-Paced 85hrs-250hrs.

_____________________________________________

FBO Route

From 85 hours-250 hours
(in a 172 at $100/hr wet)

Instrument rating
(35hrs of PIC XC x $100/hr)
$3,500

(37hrs of Instrument Training x $100/hr + 37hrs of Instrument x $40/hr for instructor)

$3,700 + $1,480
________________________
$8,680 total 156TT

Commercial Rating
(c-150 for timebuilding at $29/hr, pay for fuel only[$100 to fill up divide by 3.5 hours of flying time=29/hr])

(84hrs of timebuilding x $29/hr)
$2,436(if you have flying buddy, split that cost in half)

(10hrs complex training X $150/hr + 10hrs x $40/hr instruction)
$1,500 + $400
___________________________
$13,016 total 250TT

Multi w/ Commercial/Instrument AddOn
($300/hr for Seneca wet including instructor)

(15hrs x $300/hr)
$4,500
___________________________
$17,516 total 265TT

CFI/CFII at American Flyers

$6,000 + 20hrs(costs and hours from personal experience)
___________________________
$23,516 total 285TT

MEI
($300hr for Seneca/wet including Instructor)

(15hrs PIC x $300/hr)
$4,500
___________________________
$28,016 total 300TT 30ME


So there ya go. That's the cost break-down. Not only that, but that was based on the prices at VNY. If you go to POC/Brackett field, you can get a single for 90/hr (not inlcuding instructor) and a twin for $250/hr including instructor.

Also, if you split the cost for the c-150 timbuilding, that knocks off another $1,000 right there. You can also get everything done very quickly if you are self-motivated and willing to put forth the effort.


Hope this helps.

 

[Aviator1988]

I started out training at a local FBO in Michigan. I flew a piper warrior, which i rented for 98.00 an hour, and i think the instructor was 35.00 an hour. Im just finishing up my commercial and am going on to do all my instructor ratings and Phoenix East Aviation. All in all, at PEA, i have 58,000 dollars in student loans, which with the current market, i'm a little worried about paying back.

The flight training route you take depends on how motivated you are to get it done.

 

[SoCalFlyer2]

I was set to go to ATP...However I never felt comfortable with it....In this economy and the fact that I am not interested in rushing (would have taken the self-paced) I feel I can get the job done at an FBO and do it in the same time frame. The Multi time I could build later and fly for cheaper on a 172 or 150..I even have access to a 150 for time building...TT is TT no matter what you fly. Also the fact that ATP is 50,000 dollars and the CFI program is not worth it seeing that they fired a ton of CFI's and the airlines aren't hiring with 250 TT in the near future. Where is the value when they charged less 1 year ago and you got the full benefit of ATP. I have also seen posts stating that ATP charges somewhere like 360 dollars per hour when you calculate it out...Is this true..Anyone ever calculated the FBO route compared to ATP..What is the savings doing it at an FBO or ATP.

Thanks!

It is definitely without a question cheaper to go the FBO route. If you have access to a 150 than you can definitely save a lot of money. Don't get me wrong, ATP delivered on their promise for me but if I could do it all over again I'd go the FBO route.

As far as the hourly rate, yes it gets expensive. Especially when you consider how much it costs when you and another student are BOTH paying the hourly rate to split time in a seminole. Did I mention you will spend your cross country time ferrying their broken planes to maintenance facilities? I'd rather find someone else who wants to timebuild and fly to fun and interesting places.

The airlines aren't hiring so there is no rush to "get there first" as ATP claims. There are plenty of guys on the street right now (or soon will be) who will have 2000+hours, 121 experience, etc, who will get that job long before you do. Whether you come out with 50 hours multi or 150 hours it really doesn't matter right now. These same guys are taking on the instructing jobs so even those are tough to find. One benefit of ATP was they hired you on as instructor when you finished the program but now that isn't even happening anymore since the industry slowed down so much.

If you are really motivated, find a good CFI and hire him as your personal CFI for all your training and pay him a flat rate to fly/ground school you for 5-6 days a week. ATP pays their instructors $2K a month regardless of how much they fly. So if you plan on flying say 100 hours a month you can could probably make a good deal with a CFI. If you are in the Los Angeles area I could work something out for you!

 

[BillH]

It is definitely without a question cheaper to go the FBO route. If you have access to a 150 than you can definitely save a lot of money. Don't get me wrong, ATP delivered on their promise for me but if I could do it all over again I'd go the FBO route.

As far as the hourly rate, yes it gets expensive. Especially when you consider how much it costs when you and another student are BOTH paying the hourly rate to split time in a seminole. Did I mention you will spend your cross country time ferrying their broken planes to maintenance facilities? I'd rather find someone else who wants to timebuild and fly to fun and interesting places.

The airlines aren't hiring so there is no rush to "get their first" as ATP claims. There are plenty of guys on the street right now (or soon will be) who will have 2000+hours, 121 experience, etc, who will get that job long before you do. Whether you come out with 50 hours multi or 150 hours it really doesn't matter right now. These same guys are taking on the instructing jobs so even those are tough to find. One benefit of ATP was they hired you on as instructor when you finished the program but now that isn't even happening anymore since the industry slowed down so much.

If you are really motivated, find a good CFI and hire him as your personal CFI for all your training and pay him a flat rate to fly/ground school you for 5-6 days a week. ATP pays their instructors $2K a month regardless of how much they fly. So if you plan on flying say 100 hours a month you can could probably make a good deal with a CFI. If you are in the Los Angeles area I could work something out for you!

You'll learn more with multiple CFI's. One CFI for everything leaves you as a clone of your CFI, good AND BAD habits.

 

[Socal321]

I'm not sure how much 172s cost now at days, I'm assuming around 100bucks for the old ones. And twins I'm assuming about 200 bucks per hour.

So 220-250 hours for commercial would equal about 25,000 dollars add a few thousand for the instructor and misc. Now you also need multi time, at least 100 hours. So 100 times 200 dollars per hour equals 20,000 dollars fo the twin time. So if you go to your local mom and pop FBO, the total cost will be around 45,000 dollars to get the commercial and have 100 hours of multi which meets most multi requirements. Now if you fly 150s and cheap airplanes, you could probably knock off 5 to 10 thousand dollars. But it's definetly NOT cheaper to go to the FBO route by very much.

ATP is fixed price. From Inst to CFII/MEI and all multi engine time, after completion you get a guaranteed job as a multi engine instructor. Seems like ATP is the way better option because it's a one time pay for all and you don't have to worry about the schedules and all the logistics that a pt161 mom and pop place can never provide you. Not to mention mom and pop places are not flight schools, they are airplane rentals that happen to employ instructors. ATP is a pro flight school, that is all they do along with their agreements with the airlines, you don't have to worry about a doctor or lawyer stealing your flight slots till next month. Now though you probably will have to be an instructor and actually stay more than a few months because no one is hiring.

The problem with the FBO route is that it seems cheaper because you don't factor in the multi time wich will get you either way, multi is expensive and hard to get unless you pay for it. ATP incorporates that from the begging so in the end the FBO and ATP are almost the same. ATP just gives you the peace of mind that the FBO can never give you. And if you have spent time in the FBO, you'll know what I mean, nothing is available and booked till next month and you're the 5th student your CFI is taking care of at the time. After I finished my private at a local mom and pop I quickly realised that it wasn't the way to go if I had any hopes of keeping my sanity while going all the way to commerical/multi.

 

[dpgtime]

Socal,

A few things I found was that ATP charges 300+ an hour for the multi time....next they basically cut the CFI program out (would rather you take a refund) because they are firing all their CFI's as it is right now. Also they cut the multi time down to 75 XC PIC...and are inputting 25 XC PIC in the 172....This seems less and less worth 50,000 dollars in this economic time....I would also be doing the 10 month which I could do at a flight school. I have flown out of many flight schools and have had many instructors and I have never had a problem with a mom and pop place. I would have a problem if I owe ATP 50,000 with no job to show for it in the near future.

Thanks for the info I do appriciate it!:rawk:

 

[38bat]

Come to Florida... 1/5 share of IFR Cherokee 160 for $2500, $70 monthly and $31hr dry(and you own 20% of the plane). I slow it down and burn 6-7 gals hour. Fuel is under 3 bucks a gallon. Twin on the field rents for $195hr wet. If you were motivated you could be done in 90 days. Simulator at our field is also $30hr with instructor.

 

[wjmiller3]

Come to Florida... 1/5 share of IFR Cherokee 160 for $2500, $70 monthly and $31hr dry(and you own 20% of the plane). I slow it down and burn 6-7 gals hour. Fuel is under 3 bucks a gallon. Twin on the field rents for $195hr wet. If you were motivated you could be done in 90 days. Simulator at our field is also $30hr with instructor.

Not bad prices at all...First GA planeride ever was in a 160.

 

[Socal321]

I don't know it's up to you, as far as my experience ATP was the pest possible choice that I could have made to get my licenses. All I am saying is that ATP gives you a piece of mind and that is very valuable. They will always need CFIs and ATP doesn't accept just anyone they will only accept your if they can accommodate you. They look for people that will stick around to become CFIs so you will find a CFI job. I'm not sure what you mean by ATP is "firing" CFIs. A instructor spot is pretty much guaranteed as a graduate unless you decline.

Either way you will be very well connected if you go to ATP. You will be a multi engine CFI and possibly become an instructor for those VLJs they're supposed to get. After you spend your money at your local place which is not that much more cheaper, you'll be on your own, at ATP you'll have a lot of options not to mention the airline agreements which will come in very handy when those mins go back up to 1000tt when airlines start hiring again. Good luck.

 

[SoCalFlyer2]

You'll learn more with multiple CFI's. One CFI for everything leaves you as a clone of your CFI, good AND BAD habits.

At ATP you generally stick with one CFI for each phase. Some smaller locations only have ONE or maybe TWO instructors total so you'll stay with the same person for the duration of your training.

Everything is standardized now and you follow a syllabus so no one misses anything.

 

[SoCalFlyer2]

I don't know it's up to you, as far as my experience ATP was the pest possible choice that I could have made to get my licenses. All I am saying is that ATP gives you a piece of mind and that is very valuable. They will always need CFIs and ATP doesn't accept just anyone they will only accept your if they can accommodate you. They look for people that will stick around to become CFIs so you will find a CFI job. I'm not sure what you mean by ATP is "firing" CFIs. A instructor spot is pretty much guaranteed as a graduate unless you decline.

Either way you will be very well connected if you go to ATP. You will be a multi engine CFI and possibly become an instructor for those VLJs they're supposed to get. After you spend your money at your local place which is not that much more cheaper, you'll be on your own, at ATP you'll have a lot of options not to mention the airline agreements which will come in very handy when those mins go back up to 1000tt when airlines start hiring again. Good luck.

Thats only with the RJ course and it's extra $$$ now I believe. You can get your ratings anywhere and if you really want to blow your money, you can always take their RJ course. Doesn't do you much good if you end flying a turboprop though.

 

[Socal321]

I agree the CRJ course is a giant waste of time and money but if you are an ATP CFI I believe it's free or about 2 thousand. 2k is worth it to get an upper hand in airline hiring, you will more than make up for that when you're hired and flying.

 

[wjmiller3]

I don't know it's up to you, as far as my experience ATP was the pest possible choice that I could have made to get my licenses. All I am saying is that ATP gives you a piece of mind and that is very valuable. They will always need CFIs and ATP doesn't accept just anyone they will only accept your if they can accommodate you. They look for people that will stick around to become CFIs so you will find a CFI job. I'm not sure what you mean by ATP is "firing" CFIs. A instructor spot is pretty much guaranteed as a graduate unless you decline.

Either way you will be very well connected if you go to ATP. You will be a multi engine CFI and possibly become an instructor for those VLJs they're supposed to get. After you spend your money at your local place which is not that much more cheaper, you'll be on your own, at ATP you'll have a lot of options not to mention the airline agreements which will come in very handy when those mins go back up to 1000tt when airlines start hiring again. Good luck.

Not true at all. The four "graduates" that were "asked to leave" my instructor standardization class a year ago would disagee with you on that one. Nothing is guaranteed.

And the VLJ instructors are going to be airline pilots on their days off unless the plan has changed.

 

[Socal321]

Not true at all. The four "graduates" that were "asked to leave" my instructor standardization class a year ago would disagee with you on that one. Nothing is guaranteed.

And the VLJ instructors are going to be airline pilots on their days off unless the plan has changed.

4 guys a year ago?.... that's it? Well what was the reason? Plenty of guys were asked to leave when they couldn't teach. ATP doesn't owe anyone a job.

 

[wjmiller3]

4 guys a year ago?.... that's it? Well what was the reason? Plenty of guys were asked to leave when they couldn't teach. ATP doesn't owe anyone a job.

I was refering to the class I went through, started with 8, ended with 4. Cant speak of all the other classes. And I was responding to your post, and I quote "A instructor spot is pretty much guaranteed as a graduate unless you decline. "

 

[Socal321]

I was refering to the class I went through, started with 8, ended with 4. Cant speak of all the other classes. And I was responding to your post, and I quote "A instructor spot is pretty much guaranteed as a graduate unless you decline. "

Well.... yes... no one is going to hire you if you can't teach... I think that goes without say.

 

[wjmiller3]

Well.... yes... no one is going to hire you if you can't teach... I think that goes without say.

Or fly....which was the case above.

 

[BillH]

At ATP you generally stick with one CFI for each phase. Some smaller locations only have ONE or maybe TWO instructors total so you'll stay with the same person for the duration of your training.

Everything is standardized now and you follow a syllabus so no one misses anything.

I teach Jepp 141 sylabus that is very thorough. I can safely say that although the main content is going to be nearly the same from CFI to CFI, what will not be the same are tiny little things that make a good pilot great. Every CFI has their own set of little things that get handed down to the students, no two CFI's are going to have the same set of small things to hand down.