Haven't seen it posted here yet:

[KLB]

Here's exactly what an RJ course is. It's a Gleim for training at a regional. Does not actually increase your abilities much, just allows you to have a heads up on what is coming up in training. Its sad to see so much importance put on something so useless.

Thats the funny part. Most companies, including mine, send you some of the training materials ahead of time. So you will get a jump start on some of the reading material. Even still, you could call your buddies that work for XYZ airlines and get the scoop on training.

 

[bike21]

Oh there's no doubt some worthy discussion of the worth of one versus the other, but I was just pointing out that any training beyond the comm rating is technically "paying for a job"

Could not be further from the truth. I got all of my CFI ratings to do one thing. Teach. I did it for 3 years and loved it.

If someone doesn't want to get the CFI rating fine. Go fly something else (not an RJ), but don't teach because you 'have to'. I never could stand CFIs who are doing it to go through the motions. Absolutely worthless from the customer's standpoint.

 

[greaper007]

These companies are just setting these pilots up to fail. I feel bad for these pilots that wash out of sim training at the beginning of their careers. That's going to follow them for the rest of their lives. I had relatively low time (600 total 400 multi) and I'm not going to lie, I was sucking wind in the sim. If I didn't have the MEI experience to fall back on it would have been disastrous. The kids who had low time and low multi hours seemed to have a much harder time with stuff like V1 cuts.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Could not be further from the truth. I got all of my CFI ratings to do one thing. Teach. I did it for 3 years and loved it.

If someone doesn't want to get the CFI rating fine. Go fly something else (not an RJ), but don't teach because you 'have to'. I never could stand CFIs who are doing it to go through the motions. Absolutely worthless from the customer's standpoint.

But you got your CFI ratings to get a job teaching? Some could say that's BS - that the school should train you to be a CFI.

 

[bike21]

But you got your CFI ratings to get a job teaching? Some could say that's BS - that the school should train you to be a CFI.

And some would be wrong. A CFI cert is something you can take anywhere and get a job. Not just a particular company with standardized training. You might have a leg to stand on if each school had to give a CFI cert. for that school only. Kind of like training for a 121 job is only good at the specific carrier. But you can take your CFI anywhere and apply for a job same as the commercial cert.

 

[Zero1Niner]

I personally would not put my family on a regional jet unless the crew has 1000 hours - maybe we should create a public awareness campaign for the public.

Yeah.. lets all go take a huge dump on our own kitchen tables and piss all over ourselves too!

There are enough outsiders that want to terrify the public. Lets leave it to them.

 

[Murdoughnut]

And some would be wrong. A CFI cert is something you can take anywhere and get a job. Not just a particular company with standardized training. You might have a leg to stand on if each school had to give a CFI cert. for that school only. Kind of like training for a 121 job is only good at the specific carrier. But you can take your CFI anywhere and apply for a job same as the commercial cert.

True, but if an RJ course gets you into the right seat of a jet, then you could take that experience and get a better job. Look to each his own, but if someone told me that my options were:

1) Pay $5k for a CFI rating, study and train for 2-months, and teach for a few more months to get a chance at a regional job, or;

2) Pay $5k for a week's worth of RJ training and get a chance at a regional job

... I'm going with #2. Sorry, if my goal is to get an airline job, this just sounds more appealing. If you want to take the scenic route, though, by all means do it. No one's judging you.

C'mon, we all know this is about established guys being pissed off that there's an easier route than the one they had to take. My masters degree took two years of suck to obtain - guys I work with got theres in 12-months online by barely lifting a finger. Sure it pisses me off - and sure there's probably isn't as inherently good as mine, but the end result is the same.

And all this BS about "I'm not putting myself on a plane with a 250 hour RJ pilot" is crap. C'mon, admit it. Probabilistically speaking, you'd never let your family drive after 11pm if you were really that concerned about them. It's up to the FAA and the airlines to decide what they want in an applicant. You can sit around telling them that what they want is wrong, but while you do that, other guys are taking your seniority spot.

 

[KLB]

You're in a regional airline interview:

Question

Interviewer- I see here that you washed out of xyz airline training program a while back. Why do you believe that you can make it through our training program?

Answer

You as a CFI- To be honest with you, I just wasn't prepared for the rigors of airline training the first time around. I only had 300hrs TT at the time of my first training experience. But since then, I've gone back and instructed another 700hrs and gained valuable experience, not only in the flying aspect, but also basic knowledge. You know that theres know better way to fully understand a concept than having to teach that concept to someone else. I believe that I've gained the experience to have a much better outcome this time around.

You as a jet transition graduate- ???????

 

[Zero1Niner]

And all this BS about "I'm not putting myself on a plane with a 250 hour RJ pilot" is crap. C'mon, admit it. Probabilistically speaking, you'd never let your family drive after 11pm if you were really that concerned about them. It's up to the FAA and the airlines to decide what they want in an applicant. You can sit around telling them that what they want is wrong, but while you do that, other guys are taking your seniority spot.

WORD. :yeahthat:

 

[bike21]

True, but if an RJ course gets you into the right seat of a jet, then you could take that experience and get a better job. Look to each his own, but if someone told me that my options were:

1) Pay $5k for a CFI rating, study and train for 2-months, and teach for a few more months to get a chance at a regional job, or;

2) Pay $5k for a week's worth of RJ training and get a chance at a regional job

... I'm going with #2. Sorry, if my goal is to get an airline job, this just sounds more appealing. If you want to take the scenic route, though, by all means do it. No one's judging you.

C'mon, we all know this is about established guys being pissed off that there's an easier route than the one they had to take. My masters degree took two years of suck to obtain - guys I work with got theres in 12-months online by barely lifting a finger. Sure it pisses me off - and sure there's probably isn't as inherently good as mine, but the end result is the same. Not likely.

And all this BS about "I'm not putting myself on a plane with a 250 hour RJ pilot" is crap. C'mon, admit it. Probabilistically speaking, you'd never let your family drive after 11pm if you were really that concerned about them. It's up to the FAA and the airlines to decide what they want in an applicant. You can sit around telling them that what they want is wrong, but while you do that, other guys are taking your seniority spot.

I see we will likely go round and round on this one. Look it is really simple. Experience matters. Anyone who tries to discount that fact is either...

a) trying to justify their position
b) seriously out of tune with the real world
c) all of the above

I sometimes dread starting a 4 day with a brand new FO here at my company...and we have high hiring minimums!! I couldn't imagine having some 300 hour FO next to me. As captain you have enough to put up with on a daily basis let alone teaching a new hire how to fly an airplane and learn the intricacies of the 121 world. Don't get me wrong, I try to be a good captain and impart solid knowledge on my FOs (have always been an educator) but I won't teach an FO things he/she should have picked up with years of experience already under the ol' belt.

It may ultimately be up to the FAA and airlines to set hiring minimums, however it is our job on the 'frontline' to keep them honest. Just like it is a citizens job to keep their government's practices honest.

You're in a regional airline interview:

Question

Interviewer- I see here that you washed out of xyz airline training program a while back. Why do you believe that you can make it through our training program?

Answer

You as a CFI- To be honest with you, I just wasn't prepared for the rigors of airline training the first time around. I only had 300hrs TT at the time of my first training experience. But since then, I've gone back and instructed another 700hrs and gained valuable experience, not only in the flying aspect, but also basic knowledge. You know that theres know better way to fully understand a concept than having to teach that concept to someone else. I believe that I've gained the experience to have a much better outcome this time around.

You as a jet transition graduate- ???????

Thank you Kelvin, well put

 

[Murdoughnut]

I see we will likely go round and round on this one. Look it is really simple. Experience matters. Anyone who tries to discount that fact is either...

a) trying to justify their position
b) seriously out of tune with the real world
c) all of the above

I sometimes dread starting a 4 day with a brand new FO here at my company...and we have high hiring minimums!! I couldn't imagine having some 300 hour FO next to me. As captain you have enough to put up with on a daily basis let alone teaching a new hire how to fly an airplane and learn the intricacies of the 121 world. Don't get me wrong, I try to be a good captain and impart solid knowledge on my FOs (have always been an educator) but I won't teach an FO things he/she should have picked up with years of experience already under the ol' belt.

It may ultimately be up to the FAA and airlines to set hiring minimums, however it is our job on the 'frontline' to keep them honest. Just like it is a citizens job to keep their government's practices honest.



Thank you Kelvin, well put

I don't disagree with you - experience is important. But the right audience for that sermon would be the airlines themselves.

 

[bike21]

I don't disagree with you - experience is important. But the right audience for that sermon would be the airlines themselves.

Fair enough But this is a good audience as well, if educated and talented pilots tell the airlines, "raise your wages and work rules - instead of lowering the bar" something might actually get accomplished in our collective favor.

/ end sermon

 

[JayAre]

Well heck maybe just maybe Ill have enough time to get street captian if they get that desperate.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Fair enough But this is a good audience as well, if educated and talented pilots tell the airlines, "raise your wages and work rules - instead of lowering the bar" something might actually get accomplished in our collective favor.

/ end sermon

That's where the unions you guys pay for should be sacking up and stepping in. What exactly do they do with your dues anyways?

 

[jtrain609]

That's where the unions you guys pay for should be sacking up and stepping in. What exactly do they do with your dues anyways?

He doesn't have a union, which is too bad. Skywest has a good pilot group and could get bent over at any second.

My company spends a good chunk of our union dues on lawyer fee's while trying to fix mistakes the company makes. I once heard that ALPA makes about $800,000 a year on our dues, but spends $1.5 million in lawyer fee's with us.

 

[bike21]

He doesn't have a union, which is too bad. Skywest has a good pilot group and could get bent over at any second.

:yeahthat:

We don't have much in the way of protection/solidarity/help/balls. Generally we are treated well enough, but there are no guarantees.

 

[HeyEng]

I just don't know what to say about all this. So for the "no flight time requirement" it states:

<LI class=none2>Advanced Jet Training; includes:

• <LI class=none2>Transport Category Systems Training <LI class=none2>Level 5/6 Jet FTD or Category C/D Jet Full Motion Simulator <LI class=none2>Crew Concept Training <LI class=none2>FMS Training Preferred <LI class=none2>Glass Cockpit Preferred <LI class=none2>Crew Resource Management (CRM) Training
• Accelerated Jet Ground School

So I am to assume as an active duty AF flight engineer that has had formal training (groundschool, CPTs, SIMs, CRM) then this would satisfy this requirement? I would think so, and that scares me. I personally do not have the desire to go fly around a RJ with minimum flight experience. I would prefer to have -135 mins and do the freight thing for a while...

 

[taseal]

ASA has lowered their mins to:

Minimums for Advanced Jet Training:
A multi-engine commercial instrument rating and completion of an advanced jet course is sufficient for an interview.

• No minimum flight time requirement
• current Heartbeat (Medical preferred)

Saw it on another board and had to check it out...couldn't believe it! They're the first, but i highly doubt they'll be the last. :banghead:

corrected

 

[Ian_J]

True, but if an RJ course gets you into the right seat of a jet, then you could take that experience and get a better job. Look to each his own, but if someone told me that my options were:

1) Pay $5k for a CFI rating, study and train for 2-months, and teach for a few more months to get a chance at a regional job, or;

2) Pay $5k for a week's worth of RJ training and get a chance at a regional job

... I'm going with #2. Sorry, if my goal is to get an airline job, this just sounds more appealing. If you want to take the scenic route, though, by all means do it. No one's judging you.

C'mon, we all know this is about established guys being pissed off that there's an easier route than the one they had to take. My masters degree took two years of suck to obtain - guys I work with got theres in 12-months online by barely lifting a finger. Sure it pisses me off - and sure there's probably isn't as inherently good as mine, but the end result is the same.

And all this BS about "I'm not putting myself on a plane with a 250 hour RJ pilot" is crap. C'mon, admit it. Probabilistically speaking, you'd never let your family drive after 11pm if you were really that concerned about them. It's up to the FAA and the airlines to decide what they want in an applicant. You can sit around telling them that what they want is wrong, but while you do that, other guys are taking your seniority spot.

Not in my case. For one, I'm not "established," I'm just a freight prop driver. Second, I never needed to CFI - I did it because I wanted to fly airplanes, I wanted to teach, and I wanted practical experience. My employer hired me with mostly Army helicopter time. I really didn't need to "build" airplane time at all - I just needed the words "multi-engine airplane" stamped on my cert.

If you take a jet course and get hired low time - I wouldn't think bad of you at all. I understand how it is these days. Times are changing. I still think it's a waste of money.

But going the CFI/banner/pipeline/jumper etc route isn't "taking the scenic route" in my opinion. Without solid PIC decision making experience under your belt you really don't know what experience you are truly lacking.

On the other hand, to play my own devil's advocate, it all probably doesn't matter much once your standard low-time jet course FO has a few thousand hours and is a Captain. Honestly, it probably all works out in the end.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Not in my case. For one, I'm not "established," I'm just a freight prop driver. Second, I never needed to CFI - I did it because I wanted to fly airplanes, I wanted to teach, and I wanted practical experience. My employer hired me with mostly Army helicopter time. I really didn't need to "build" airplane time at all - I just needed the words "multi-engine airplane" stamped on my cert.

If you take a jet course and get hired low time - I wouldn't think bad of you at all. I understand how it is these days. Times are changing. I still think it's a waste of money.

But going the CFI/banner/pipeline/jumper etc route isn't "taking the scenic route" in my opinion. Without solid PIC decision making experience under your belt you really don't know what experience you are truly lacking.

On the other hand, to play my own devil's advocate, it all probably doesn't matter much once your standard low-time jet course FO has a few thousand hours and is a Captain. Honestly, it probably all works out in the end.

Oh I wasn't referring to you with that comment - I know you were just pointing out the training value differences between the RJ Course route and others - and you're absolutely right. I agree - if you want to be a better pilot, this would not be ideal.

I guess I'm just of the school of thought that if the airlines are adjusting their requirements (to RJ courses over multi time) then as a potential employee, you have to adjust as well. I may not be ideal, but it's what they want.