Hai I would liek to offer my pilit sirvices 4 free

[🦈💜]

When it comes down to it. The guy is being a charity, and it is such a common problem it is taking away from people who are making a legitimate living with their skillset... I don't even understand how this guy could drop a load of cash for all his certificates and then turn right around say free to everybody...

This is not going to be a popular thing to say, but have you considered that the value in a market where many people are working for free might just be in value add...and only value add?

~Fox

 

[🦈💜]

Interesting point, but when your completion and tons of other pilots are willing to do the same job for free, near free, or even pay for a job, how can you set the bar really high?

-you- can't. A person is smart; people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. But to be more specific, I don't see delineation (or even a grey area) between "I'm working for a ridiculously low wage" and "I'm taking no direct monetary compensation for my time, merely hours." Both of them hinge on the concept that the individual probably couldn't get a job if they held out for more money, and therefore both of them "lower the bar", as the phrase goes.

Aviation is a little strange in that it's something that, at present, has a saturated market and a very high bar to entry for the (dwindling set of) jobs that actually pay anything. The experience required, however, almost always involves the very expensive operation of very expensive aircraft ... which is cost-prohibitive to do by oneself. So the industry, and the entrants to the market, have accepted the premise that the actual experience itself is part of the compensation. Much like internships, apprenticeships, and other experienced-based forms of employment.

So with that said, it's rational that people might work for no direct remuneration... or even pay a small fee for the privilege. That is a line that was crossed long, long ago, and anyone who thinks this is related to the profit margins for a company isn't really thinking hard. If a business doesn't perceive adequate profit in a market, based on paying a realistic wage for its employees and all the other standard costs of business, it won't (or shouldn't) enter the market... the company president isn't feeding his kids on foodstamps and gruel because his pilots are too expensive. Period.

The rate pilots are paid is determined strictly by what pilots are willing to work for--if pilots cost a million dollars a year, a prospective entrant into the aviation business would simply tag that as part of its business analysis and decide whether the business was worthwhile. Things that needed to get flown would still get flown, although possibly not as cheaply. In short, people who accept any less than a professional wage are all equally culpable, in my eyes--whether that involves getting paid $40k, $20k, $0k or -$15k. If you examine all sorts of various markets, you'll find that a professional rate in the US's current market climate starts at $60 per hour of labor. That's a raw rate for all hours spent on a job, and should be considered as a pre-benefit rate. That's what you'd pay a consultant, or the absolute cost you'd pay for an employee, with all benefits taken into an account.

That's a bit of an extrapolated generalization, of course, but you'll find that it works out very near to almost any situation you run the numbers in. You can determine how depressed an area's business economy is by comparing its salary to that rate. You can determine a lot of things. If you look at it as a salary for a salaried employee, it comes out to ~$58-$60k/yr+benefits for 2080 hours of work.

Most of aviation is purportedly well below the bar.

Like jrh says, make your service better. Which is true. Buuuut, there are a lot of surprisingly cheap bastages out there looking to save a buck any way they can. Especially given this economy.

Current American capitalist philosophy holds that you need to screw everyone for as much money as you can possibly get. Good business used to be about cultivating long-term relationships with suppliers, customers, employees, etc, and making a reasonable profit, paying a reasonable rate for services, etc. There's a big difference between the two, and in my opinion we're staring down the business end of it.

Anyway, enough blather. Can you tell I like listening to myself type?

~Fox

 

[🦈💜]

I wouldn't call my paycheck insulting, but I'm not really sure what I would call it. As a hostage of the Great Rat Race (the economy), I am largely satisfied with being employed.

Someone working for free might feel the same way. ~.^

But yeah.. I'm not judging, actually. I'm mostly poking people here to encourage them to think with their headmeats rather than their subganglial testosteroni.

~Fox

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Someone working for free might feel the same way. ~.^

But yeah.. I'm not judging, actually. I'm mostly poking people here to encourage them to think with their headmeats rather than their subganglial testosteroni.

~Fox

Meh, I'm off first year pay Real Soon Now.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

It seems like there is something you want to say....some point to make. Just say it. Or let me get you started; why do you fly your company's airplane for free?

Nothing really, except that some people do fly aircraft for free for business. Company has a plane, I can fly or drive the company vehicle when needed. What would you do? It's a business tool. I use it as such. Personal use is at a stated rate. I have taken multiple people flying (at my cost) to keep them current. Guess they could of paid to rent a plane or even get a CFI. I was just trying to pay it forward...

I've helped friends out moving their airplanes too (they helped me move the company's too). Mostly for maintenance. (work is done at another local field). I've always done that for free too.

Is there a problem with any of this? 8)
Also, the secretary is cute and the wife of the owner....Yes, one of my two kids is with her. I like my job!

 

[z987k]

Nothing really, except that some people do fly aircraft for free for business. Company has a plane, I can fly or drive the company vehicle when needed. What would you do? It's a business tool. I use it as such. Personal use is at a stated rate. I have taken multiple people flying (at my cost) to keep them current. Guess they could of paid to rent a plane or even get a CFI. I was just trying to pay it forward...

I've helped friends out moving their airplanes too (they helped me move the company's too). Mostly for maintenance. (work is done at another local field). I've always done that for free too.

Is there a problem with any of this? 8)
Also, the secretary is cute and the wife of the owner....Yes, one of my two kids is with her. I like my job!

You're not flying for free. You get paid for the work you do and that sometimes includes flying an airplane or driving a car.

 

[z987k]

-you- can't. A person is smart; people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. But to be more specific, I don't see delineation (or even a grey area) between "I'm working for a ridiculously low wage" and "I'm taking no direct monetary compensation for my time, merely hours." Both of them hinge on the concept that the individual probably couldn't get a job if they held out for more money, and therefore both of them "lower the bar", as the phrase goes.

Aviation is a little strange in that it's something that, at present, has a saturated market and a very high bar to entry for the (dwindling set of) jobs that actually pay anything. The experience required, however, almost always involves the very expensive operation of very expensive aircraft ... which is cost-prohibitive to do by oneself. So the industry, and the entrants to the market, have accepted the premise that the actual experience itself is part of the compensation. Much like internships, apprenticeships, and other experienced-based forms of employment.

So with that said, it's rational that people might work for no direct remuneration... or even pay a small fee for the privilege. That is a line that was crossed long, long ago, and anyone who thinks this is related to the profit margins for a company isn't really thinking hard. If a business doesn't perceive adequate profit in a market, based on paying a realistic wage for its employees and all the other standard costs of business, it won't (or shouldn't) enter the market... the company president isn't feeding his kids on foodstamps and gruel because his pilots are too expensive. Period.

The rate pilots are paid is determined strictly by what pilots are willing to work for--if pilots cost a million dollars a year, a prospective entrant into the aviation business would simply tag that as part of its business analysis and decide whether the business was worthwhile. Things that needed to get flown would still get flown, although possibly not as cheaply. In short, people who accept any less than a professional wage are all equally culpable, in my eyes--whether that involves getting paid $40k, $20k, $0k or -$15k. If you examine all sorts of various markets, you'll find that a professional rate in the US's current market climate starts at $60 per hour of labor. That's a raw rate for all hours spent on a job, and should be considered as a pre-benefit rate. That's what you'd pay a consultant, or the absolute cost you'd pay for an employee, with all benefits taken into an account.

That's a bit of an extrapolated generalization, of course, but you'll find that it works out very near to almost any situation you run the numbers in. You can determine how depressed an area's business economy is by comparing its salary to that rate. You can determine a lot of things. If you look at it as a salary for a salaried employee, it comes out to ~$58-$60k/yr+benefits for 2080 hours of work.

Most of aviation is purportedly well below the bar.



Current American capitalist philosophy holds that you need to screw everyone for as much money as you can possibly get. Good business used to be about cultivating long-term relationships with suppliers, customers, employees, etc, and making a reasonable profit, paying a reasonable rate for services, etc. There's a big difference between the two, and in my opinion we're staring down the business end of it.

Anyway, enough blather. Can you tell I like listening to myself type?

~Fox

I agree, and to be honest I think everyone climbing over themselves for these 20k/yr jobs are only a half rung up the ladder from these people that do it for free.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

You're not flying for free. You get paid for the work you do and that sometimes includes flying an airplane or driving a car.

True, but the comment was flying for free, which I do. I am NOT compensated to fly. What about the free flights I have given people instead of them having to rent a plane and get a CFI? How do you feel about that?
Also, the secretary has another kid, but the owner isn't the father of that one...

Why do I feel like this is a 3rd grade word problem?

 

[z987k]

True, but the comment was flying for free, which I do. I am NOT compensated to fly. What about the free flights I have given people instead of them having to rent a plane and get a CFI? How do you feel about that?
Also, the secretary has another kid, but the owner isn't the father of that one...

Why do I feel like this is a 3rd grade word problem?

Well then what about me renting an airplane and paying to fly? Should I hire a pilot to fly me around? I think you're picking at straws here. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what is taking a job from a professional and what is recreation.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Never mind. Not worth it. Be worried of people giving away their time and money to try and help others out.

 

[JetDoc]

Like, if the student pays $45/hour and the instructor gets paid $25/hour..
.

Where is this flight school? LOL! If I was paid anything close to that I wouldn't need to have a second job...

 

[Winglet]

Where is this flight school? LOL! If I was paid anything close to that I wouldn't need to have a second job...

We charge that and pay our instructors that at the flight school I am Chief Pilot of... Pay attention to the "Members only Board". I just hired a JCer and when I need CFIs, this is normally the ONLY place I advertise...

 

[killbilly]

Where is this flight school? LOL! If I was paid anything close to that I wouldn't need to have a second job...

That rate quoted before is pretty standard for this area. Most of the schools charge somewhere in the $45-65 for instruction (depends on whether you use your airplane or theirs, whether or not it's advanced instruction, etc) and pay their instructors around $25-35 per hour, again based on seniority, qualifications.

Those are rough numbers, but relatively accurate, according to the CFIs I've talked to around here.

 

[JetDoc]

That rate quoted before is pretty standard for this area. Most of the schools charge somewhere in the $45-65 for instruction (depends on whether you use your airplane or theirs, whether or not it's advanced instruction, etc) and pay their instructors around $25-35 per hour, again based on seniority, qualifications.

Those are rough numbers, but relatively accurate, according to the CFIs I've talked to around here.

Well that's $7.00 to $17.00 an hour more than I make at my school in California and I'm in my 4th year of instructing and have over 1300 hrs dual given. I must be doing something wrong....lol...

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

Those numbers are pretty accurate for So Cal. I get $25/hr for regular instruction and $35 for Spin training or Acro at the flight school.

I did a lot a freelance work in the area too. I'd charge $45-$60/hr and a flat rate for FRs and IPCs.

Don't get too excited with the numbers... All that means it that I was able to make a living as a CFI as my only source of income. I often had 2 or 3 jobs at the same time. I wanted a part time job, where I could have a little income I could always rely on, but my availability would have suffered.

From what I've seen, CFIs who take part time jobs to supplement income rarely do well at a flight school. Some times you just have to suck it up and go in head first. CFIs who were present and available we're always the ones who did well.

 

[grkero]

LOL this knucklehead keeps putting up a bunch of these ads as we take them down.

 

[jrh]

LOL this knucklehead keeps putting up a bunch of these ads as we take them down.

Who administers the bulletin board? Is it an FBO? You may want to ask their opinion of the ads.

Also, taking ads down as fast as he puts them up is...passive aggressive. If it bothers you so much, either man up and talk to him directly about what you think, or leave him alone.

 

[grkero]

Who administers the bulletin board? Is it an FBO? You may want to ask their opinion of the ads.

Also, taking ads down as fast as he puts them up is...passive aggressive. If it bothers you so much, either man up and talk to him directly about what you think, or leave him alone.

Did you miss the part where I sent him an email? I could show up at his house, but that may not be a great idea because you are right - I don't really care that much.

He does not get the ads stamped approved as everyone else does on the board.

 

[jrh]

Did you miss the part where I sent him an email?

Yes, I missed that.

He does not get the ads stamped approved as everyone else does on the board.

Fair enough, tear 'em down then.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

He does not get the ads stamped approved as everyone else does on the board.

Ohmygod, it's like being back in college where the Division of Student Affairs, Propaganda Division Center for Student Engagement had to approve all postings.

Beyond a certain point, you're wasting your time. As far as what you can actually control in this business (indeed, this world), get up, and look in the mirror.