texas_pilot
Well-Known Member
guilty of ignorance
every examiner could say" you passed, now check out this free website forum all pilots need to be aware of"
Hai I would liek to offer my pilit sirvices 4 free
- Thread starter grkero
- Start date
every examiner could say" you passed, now check out this free website forum all pilots need to be aware of"
jrh
Well-Known Member
I'm saying getting undercut is a reality of life. It's never going away. We can either get angry about it, complain about it, and blame those doing the undercutting for why we aren't doing better in our business, or we can focus on improving our product and making money regardless of the undercutters.
This is no different from any other industry. There are nice restaurants and crappy restaurants. There are auto dealership mechanics and there is Joe Schmoe next door who'll replace your alternator for a six pack of beer. There are Embassy Suites and Motel Sixes. Different products for different prices and the consumer gets to pick which one they want.
Do you think if Embassy Suites has a bad quarter they blame Motel Six for stealing all their business? No. I'd be surprised if they even talk about it. They talk about what they're going to do to attract business that will make them money. They find ways to communicate why their hotel is worth $100+/night rather than wish all the $40/night fleabag motels would disappear.
That's all fine and good. It's great to help people and "pay it forward."
Just understand, when you give this advice, you're mostly helping *them* and not *yourself*. I think working for free is ridiculous and I rarely do it. But that's because it's pointless. It generally attracts people I don't care to work with and is more hassle than it's worth, in my opinion. It's a fast track to burning out if done on a regular basis. It has nothing to do with some noble desire to better the profession.
If I tell somebody not to work for free, it's because I'm trying to give them advice on how to have a happy and successful career. It has nothing to do with improving my own career because I know such an idea is futile. There will always be some new sucker willing to work for free.
This gets to the heart of why I responded to BenZwebner's post. He was essentially saying, "I'd make more money if it weren't for all these guys working for free." Ok, maybe so, and I'd make more money as an aircraft broker if no other brokers existed. It's a nice, ideal world, but it'll never happen, so why are we talking about it? We're all better off to deal with reality than to hope for some unobtainable ideal.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'm sorry, but this is a bit of a ridiculous argument in this case. We're not talking about someone undercutting to the extent of 10-20% off your price. We're talking about someone willing to do it for free. No matter how good of a salesman you are when talking about your product, you aren't going to beat free. You can convince someone to pay an extra 10% for your services with some good salesmanship. But it's difficult to convince someone to pay $20/hr for something that someone else is willing to do for absolutely free. And while we all love to think we're each the greatest pilot/instructor around, the truth of the matter is that we're all pretty much interchangeable due to the regulatory requirements and training standards that we all have to comply with. It may make us feel better to say that the guy offering his services for free is offering an inferior product, the truth of the matter is that with the experience he lists, he's quite likely a better instructor than a whole hell of a lot of the guys demanding $20/hr for their services who have a wet CFI ticket. His advertisement is most certainly damaging to the local CFI market, and saying otherwise is a bit delusional. Someone needs to talk to this guy and explain to him why he needs to stop this nonsense.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Sure you can. You can't beat free 100% of the time, but you can beat it enough to make a living...and that's what we're ultimately all after, aren't we? A person needs to set prices on the sales they *do* get with the assumption they're going to be undercut from time to time and plan accordingly. They also need to communicate this value to the buyer.
The way I do it is through specializing. There are a limited number of pilots in the country who are trusted to ferry aircraft worth hundreds of thousands of dollars...a lot of owners don't feel comfortable tossing the keys to their $400,000 Cessna 206 to a 300 hour pilot. There are also a limited number of pilots who have the insurance and scheduling flexibility I have.
Another way is to roll the ferry flight into the entire service we're providing. If offering to deliver the aircraft for "free" is what gets a deal worth several thousand in commissions done, we'll do it. Is that really free? Nothing's ever truly free.
Another angle is convenience. I recently ferried a 172 from Florida to Seattle. The buyer probably could have lined up a fresh commercial pilot to do it for free. It wasn't a difficult trip. But when our company sold him the plane and said, "By the way, we have a full time professional pilot on staff who handles delivery flights, would you like him to bring the plane over? We charge $350/day," the buyer had absolutely no problem with it. He just bought a $200k+ airplane, why would he screw around with trying to save an extra couple thousand when a perfectly good option is sitting right in front of him?
This is why I say the problem is with the business model, not the fact people are out there willing to undercut you. If your business model is exactly like the guy working for free, that's your problem. Of course you can't sell the same product for an infinitely higher price. You need to tweak your product to offer something of value that the guy working for free either can't or won't do.
If you're not able to offer anything of value beyond your competition, your business will fail. Welcome to America.
jrh
Well-Known Member
No doubt, it's dumb, and kinda sleezy.
The difference between me and a lot of pilots is that I don't get all bent out of shape and angry about it. I figure I can't control what everyone else in the world does, but I can control what I do.
In the words of a wise woman on the internet, "Ain't nobody got time fo dat!"
block30
Well-Known Member
To be sure, I respect and admire you speaking your mind in the face of a fairly one sided debate....further I respect your emotional restraint.
I will admit how mad I was when guys were creeping around my home 'drome flying for free or taking my flight school's rates and undercutting them. That and not complying with city ordinances, like our flight school had to do. Or provide insurance...blarg.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
It doesn't actually take a whole lot of time, effort, or will to put a brick through this dude's windshield. I mean, not that I would recommend such a course of action (that'd be illegal...er, and wrong. Definitely Wrong!).
NC_BE300
Well-Known Member
" The finer points of V.F.R..... " Huh. Perhaps we all missed something valuable in our training and this person hold the key to our sucess!!!!! (Joking)
There are many valid points in this thread.
It remains espcecially sad that there will be those people out there that will do things to hurt professions of others.
I also find it more annoying when these "undercutters" take the work from under you.....then another company undercuts/takes away "their" work....and complains about it on the jumpseat of the first company. Yeah. That.
There are many valid points in this thread.
It remains espcecially sad that there will be those people out there that will do things to hurt professions of others.
I also find it more annoying when these "undercutters" take the work from under you.....then another company undercuts/takes away "their" work....and complains about it on the jumpseat of the first company. Yeah. That.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
NE: I think it's probably worth mentioning that regionals are typically collective bargaining arrangements. The dude on your jump seat might very well have voted AGAINST that BS contract that's undercutting you. Or not even have worked there when it was signed. Etc etc.
But here we're talking about a dude who is very openly and willfully signing his name to the worst kind of undercutting. IMHO, apples and oranges.
But here we're talking about a dude who is very openly and willfully signing his name to the worst kind of undercutting. IMHO, apples and oranges.
NC_BE300
Well-Known Member
I gotcha Boris- but i'm just relating a story that i've seen that has similar draws/consequences to the topic of this thread.
And to further clarify the story- the guy was openly complaining that he joined a "lower tier under cutting company for the purpose of advancing his career super fast....blah blah blah...." then his company was pushed out by another undercutter at the time.
There are also draws with the CBA's- true.
But again- i'm referencing the mindset of some people. Similar to the posted ad.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
Ok. So if it is all about the best business model and the best product, why do you yourself get undercut by some one doing it for free? Your model is obviously better that their's, right? You keep contradicting your self is all I'm pointing out. No matter how great you do it you still get beat by free some times. I'm sure what you offer is a great product and you can have more then enough business to make a living. Wouldn't you rather be so busy you turn people away by choice rather than some one taking it from you by doing it for free? I've thought about getting into aircraft brokering, I've got the hours, experience, flexibility of schedule and I'm trusted to fly a 12 million dollar airplane. Maybe I'll do some jobs for free to get my foot in the door?
I'm not "all bent out of shape" or mad. I just see it as a way to police our own. If we went to a brokers open house (I think the op's flyer was a real-estate agent) and proclaimed I would sell your house commission free what do you think would happen? I mean I just got my realtors licsc. and I need experiance. That is a lot different then saying I'll sell your house for 3% instead of 4%. One is compitition the other is thievery.
I get what you're trying to say, work hard, put in the effort and you'll be fine. This is true for the most part. Instead of putting your head down and ignoring the problem, why not try to explain to some one what they are doing hurts the industry? Even if it takes a brick through a window.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Because the consumer isn't always logical. Even if it truly is a better product, not everyone will see it that way.
You can't fix stupid and you can't argue with crazy.
I don't see what I'm being contradictory about.
Losing an individual sale and having a failing business model are completely separate ideas. It's the difference between losing a battle and losing a war.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
That makes a little more sense when you put it that way. However, I only see it that way when the battle is being fought between two ethical businesses, not one doing it for free. Of course we can make a living even with these types out there, but just because we can doesn't mean we should tolerate it.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
The problem is that you're not talking about competing, you're talking about leaving one business (small aircraft ferry) because you can't compete with the hores, and entering a completely different business (high dollar aircraft ferry). That's great that this different business works for you, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about people who completely destroy an entire business segment by offering their services for free. Being able to adapt by moving on to a new business is great and all, but it hasn't really solved the problem.
JustinS
Well-Known Member
When it comes down to it. The guy is being a charity, and it is such a common problem it is taking away from people who are making a legitimate living with their skillset... I don't even understand how this guy could drop a load of cash for all his certificates and then turn right around say free to everybody...
Okie_Pilot
Pitts Builder
A brand new $300,000 Cessna 172 kinda fits into both of those does it not? How about the popular Piper Seneca at a used price of $750,000+? A lot of people would say $300k and $750k is a bunch of money, and I bet a majority of those same people would say both of those aircraft are "small".
OWNED.
Just kidding. I just felt like being a jerk.
elmetal
Ain't nobody got time for that
A brand new $300,000 Cessna 172 kinda fits into both of those does it not? How about the popular Piper Seneca at a used price of $750,000+? A lot of people would say $300k and $750k is a bunch of money, and I bet a majority of those same people would say both of those aircraft are "small".
OWNED.
Just kidding. I just felt like being a jerk.
I agree here. Whether it's 300,000 or 3,000,000, how much will a 5k ferry really cost you? If it hurts to ferry for that price, you're gonna have a bad time with the aircraft...
Now a 25,000 bird well, 5k is probably more than the prebuy and annual put together so I can see the owners thoughts there...
With that said, I wouldn't do it for free. Spent way too much time and money to be doing it for free. Not to mention as an immigrant, the last thing I want to be, is accused of stealing a job
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