Had to report two to the FSDO

People. Please reread post 1 of this thread:

Not part of this original post, but part of the culture that is appearing in aviation....be ready with the knife to backstab....

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/112252-calling-out-another-pilot.html

Inspired by recent events;

Aviation is largely a self policing activity. When and how should a pilot deal with another pilot who is doing something illeagal, unsafe, stupid, or inappropriate.


My opinion,

It's NEVER OK to call the FAA unless you are in a formal position of leadership (chief pilot, airport manager, head instructor, ect), the activity is willful and deliberate, and ALL other avenues have been exausted.

If you haven't ever worked in that segment of the industry, keep your mouth shut. I don't want a RJ pilot telling me about how to fly through weather in a Caravan. I promise not to tell Doug how to fly his jet across the ocean. I don't know jack about flying in Alaska, nor have I ever flown in an Ag plane, so I don't have any way to know if that is normal ops or a crazy idiot.

If it's a judgment call that you would have made differently then ASK why they went with he option they did. You will probably learn something. Regardless, each and every one of us draws the line somewhere different, and just because you don't like it doesn't mean that you are right.

If it's somebody you know, then just talk to them. 99% of the time they have a good reason for doing what they did, based on facts that you were not aware of that the time.

If you don't know the person, then find someone who does. Most people completely disregard the opinion of strangers. However, if they hear the same thing from someone they know it carries much more weight. If that person is "older and wiser", then even better.

If that approach is not working, then go up their chain of command, or use the formal methods like the FAA FAST team, or pro standards group from the union. Involve as few official steps as possible. The more informally things can be handled, the better.

If something is urgent or very dangerous, then be as forceful as you need to be. I'm not above slashing tires to keep a plane on the ground if my friend with a family is about to take off drunk.

What are your thoughts?
 
Here's the problem with what you're advocating though.....the whole "perceived" thing. I begets situations like these:





If you were Doug in this case, how would you feel? And would you still have the "must police our own for everything and anything, real or perceived?"

Armchair quarterbacking is never beneficial.
 
The turn the other cheek mentality is why we have pilots overflying airports by hundreds of miles, stalling airliners into the ground, and drunk pilots showing up for work. If someone landed on my private property and fed me a line of BS, I wouldn't think twice about turning them in. There is a huge difference between unintentional mistakes and blatent failure of your duty as the PIC.
 
The BIG WHITE Xs on the field were the first instruction to not bring an airplane there, but these guys did it anyway.

I would not expect the staff to meet them and say something along the lines of, "Hey c'mon guys, we're not kidding. Now scoot you rascals!"
 
The turn the other cheek mentality is why we have pilots overflying airports by hundreds of miles, stalling airliners into the ground, and drunk pilots showing up for work. If someone landed on my private property and fed me a line of BS, I wouldn't think twice about turning them in. There is a huge difference between unintentional mistakes and blatent failure of your duty as the PIC.

Theres also a difference between drunk pilots, airliners stalling into the ground, etc, etc [insert hugely obvious situation here], and "perceived" violations of things that we don't even know may be a violation.

Jesus.....and people bemoan and criticize the Patriot Act II. Hell, with some of the peeps here wanting to sell someone down the river for anything they *think* may be wrong, I wonder why anyone would be against anything like that.

"your paperz are not in order" is where we're headed with this mentality. As I said, blatent obvious big deal safety items are obvious things that should be reported.

Still, read the thread I cited above and the post by USMCmech.
 
Theres also a difference between drunk pilots, airliners stalling into the ground, etc, etc [insert hugely obvious situation here], and "perceived" violations of things that we don't even know may be a violation.

Jesus.....and people bemoan and criticize the Patriot Act II. Hell, with some of the peeps here wanting to sell someone down the river for anything they *think* may be wrong, I wonder why anyone would be against anything like that.

"your paperz are not in order" is where we're headed with this mentality. As I said, blatent obvious big deal safety items are obvious things that should be reported.

Still, read the thread I cited above and the post by USMCmech.

I guess if I perceive some bozo breaking into my house, I should greet them with a warm cup of Joe and invite him into my house, right? These bozos landed on a clearly marked piece of private property and then made up some BS. Emergency? No problem. Honest mistake? Ok. Making up a BS story after doing it, cmon. What choice did the OP have?

Also, his post says this:

unless you are in a formal position of leadership (chief pilot, airport manager, head instructor, ect), the activity is willful and deliberate, and ALL other avenues have been exausted.
 
Are you supposed to fly within 20 of a thunderstorm? Is an aggressive approach a similar violation compared to landing on a hiking trail? And you're assuming that a person is inexperienced if they think you're out of line.

PM me so I'll know which planes to avoid! With this attitude, I'd be glad to take another....

Inexperience in the operation I am conducting... yes. Which means they have no idea what they are talking about.
 
Are you supposed to fly within 20 of a thunderstorm? Is an aggressive approach a similar violation compared to landing on a hiking trail? And you're assuming that a person is inexperienced if they think you're out of line.

PM me so I'll know which planes to avoid! With this attitude, I'd be glad to take another....

Every airliner. Looks like you're driving from now on!
 
Man, if there was ever a demographic where the FAA should require light recreational pints o' Guinness to bring down the blood pressure, it's got to be pilots.

Take a breath folks, for craps sake.
 
The turn the other cheek mentality is why we have pilots overflying airports by hundreds of miles, stalling airliners into the ground, and drunk pilots showing up for work. QUOTE]

Pilots are group of individuals like any other segment of society. Name one segment of society that operates more efficiently and safely. Look at problems in police departments, teachers, etc.....
 
How come no one who is in support of "reporting everything you see, real or perceived, to the FAA" has answered my question on the previous page about what if it were THEY who were reported by someone who "thought" or "perceived" they were doing something wrong, and reported them? And would they like having to defend something they did that was nothing wrong, besides someones "perception" of it? And further, would they still support the "report everything and anything"?

An no one has commented on USMCmech's excellent post, or any of Doug's posted 121 airline examples of "perceptions" going wrong.

Yes, I'm calling you guys out.
 
How come no one who is in support of "reporting everything you see, real or perceived, to the FAA" has answered my question on the previous page about what if it were THEY who were reported by someone who "thought" or "perceived" they were doing something wrong, and reported them? And would they like having to defend something they did that was nothing wrong, besides someones "perception" of it? And further, would they still support the "report everything and anything"?

An no one has commented on USMCmech's excellent post, or any of Doug's posted 121 airline examples of "perceptions" going wrong.

Yes, I'm calling you guys out.

Yeah, that.

Oh and this quote is downright ridiculous: "Perception is reality."

Really? Think about that for 3 seconds.
 
How come no one who is in support of "reporting everything you see, real or perceived, to the FAA" has answered my question on the previous page about what if it were THEY who were reported by someone who "thought" or "perceived" they were doing something wrong, and reported them? And would they like having to defend something they did that was nothing wrong, besides someones "perception" of it? And further, would they still support the "report everything and anything"?

An no one has commented on USMCmech's excellent post, or any of Doug's posted 121 airline examples of "perceptions" going wrong.

Yes, I'm calling you guys out.

Because it is a straw man argument. There was nothing "perceived" in this situation. They landed on private property without permission, and they were given another opportunity to say "sorry we screwed up", but instead, just lied about who they were and why they were there.

If there is an airplane sitting on my property, the perception IS reality.

You didn't read USMC's entire post, either, because it was prefaced with this:

Inspired by recent events;


It's NEVER OK to call the FAA unless you are in a formal position of leadership (chief pilot, airport manager, head instructor, ect), the activity is willful and deliberate, and ALL other avenues have been exausted.

Given the situation at hand, not some random, created fictitious scenario, this situation meets all 3 criteria.
 
If it comes to a culture of letting everyone do whatever they want because they want to, then I'll never get it either.

Nobody here has advocated anarchy in the air. What we're advocating is minding your own business for something that isnt harming anyone and doesnt involve you. Landing on a closed runway isnt inherently dangerous, or even illegal. The fact that you *think* its dangerous, doesnt make you the airplane police.

The fact is, theres probably a lot of operations that do a lot of things as SOP that would make you poo your pants, all of them perfectly legal. Instead of shooting and letting god (the FAA) sort them out, how about you wait till you have some kind of understanding about whats going on.

Or maybe im just a dangerous pilot with a complete disregard for safety.
 
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