Had to report two to the FSDO

[Acadia]

"My duty is to my employer"? Disappointing. Very disappointing, Acadia.

Okay, enough of this attitude. For your information, we have an attorney on staff that reviews every significant action we take, and guides us through these kinds of situations. Yes, I have the duty to my employer and I have a duty to follow our attorneys instructions.

Your disrespectful post is what I find disappointing.

 

[darrenf]

No. I mean the whole "duty to employer" idea and justifications for it. Its the same justification scabs use when they scab. People think that's wrong as hell, yet "duty to employer" for reporting people the government seems to fly well. I'm just confused a bit on that one.

Are you seriously likening Acadia's carrying out his job duties to someone crossing a picket line?? Just because the knuckleheads in question happen to be pilots??

 

[Orange Anchor]

No. I mean the whole "duty to employer" idea and justifications for it. Its the same justification scabs use when they scab. People think that's wrong as hell, yet "duty to employer" for reporting people the government seems to fly well. I'm just confused a bit on that one.

I just see it as a learning lesson lost. No reason to go max 'burner when a little additional thrust would suffice.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Ok, first - where in the FARs does it say I can't land on a closed private strip (and don't say "careless and reckless"). In the glider/tow pilot world, landing on private property that isn't even an airport is not that uncommon.

If I had been retrieving a glider that landed out, would you be calling the FSDO on me?

Asking those guys not to land there again would be appropriate. Calling the Feds is a bit of an overreaction here.

 

[MikeD]

Are you seriously likening Acadia's carrying out his job duties to someone crossing a picket line?? Just because the knuckleheads in question happen to be pilots??

I'm likening the use of "duty to employer". And I'll give you an example: as a law enforcement officer, do you seriously believe that I enforce to the max extent of the law each and every law violation I witness out there, whether under my purview or not? No. I have to use something called judgement. What lack of judgement in my profession creates, are officers who will ticket every speeder they find....no warnings. Arrest everyone they come across driving with an expired license, for example; no writing a ticket or simply giving a verbal warning, given the circumstances.

This is what this kind of thinking creates. People who won't use any sort of judgement.

I carry out my job duties just fine without having to throw the full book at everyone I come across.

 

[Acadia]

No. I mean the whole "duty to employer" idea and justifications for it. Its the same justification scabs use when they scab. People think that's wrong as hell, yet "duty to employer" for reporting people the government seems to fly well. I'm just confused a bit on that one.

Really Mike?

 

[Orange Anchor]

Okay, enough of this attitude. For your information, we have an attorney on staff that reviews every significant action we take, and guides us through these kinds of situations. Yes, I have the duty to my employer and I have a duty to follow our attorneys instructions.

I didn't make the call myself, but I guided a fellow employee

It makes little difference now. The events are in motion but I have to ask, would you do anything differently next time? Is there anything to learn from this event? if this is a learning and just culture on this forum, what is the lesson and how would the same event be handled if it happened to elsewhere?

Your disrespectful post is what I find disappointing.

Sorry. I expected more of you.

 

[MikeD]

Really Mike?

Explained above. Not knocking you directly, am using your example to criticize a culture that I think is brewing in people these days, that I don't think bodes well for us. Again, nothing personal.

 

[darrenf]

I carry out my job duties just fine without having to throw the full book at everyone I come across.

And that will be the FSDO's perogative in this case. I think it is a little bombastic to imply that Acadia's behavior is on par with a scab.

 

[Jpax]

Flight following to Gitmo for you is provided by the FBI.

Since this thread is already flushing full speed down the toilet-- I find it ironic that Harold and Kumar Escape from G-Bay has been playing over and over on TV the past few weeks. :bandit:

 

[MikeD]

And that will be the FSDO's perogative in this case. I think it is a little bombastic to imply that Acadia's behavior is on par with a scab.

Since you completely missed my point, I'll reiterate it: I also use judgement to handle things at the lowest level and not elevate things from a simmer to a boil, that may not have needed to.

 

[TopGunn]

I think in order to be a grammar nazi you need to be around for more than a month and 50 some posts. Considering...

So having less then 50 some posts, i have no right to point out someone spelling mistakes? If you did not like what i posted, how about you be the better person and help your brother out with the spell check.

P.S I mentioned SPELLING NOT GRAMMAR.

 

[darrenf]

Since you completely missed my point, I'll reiterate it: I also use judgement to handle things at the lowest level and not elevate things from a simmer to a boil, that may not have needed to.

And you are afforded that judgement, just as the FSDO is. Acadia however, puts himself in jeopardy to ignore the events. Nice to know so many people care more about 2 guys who put them self in that situation, as opposed to a long time good member of the community here who simply followed his obligation.

And some of you same guys protest throwing pilots under the bus. :dunno:

 

[Acadia]

It makes little difference now. The events are in motion but I have to ask, would you do anything differently next time? Is there anything to learn from this event?

Sorry. I expected more of you.

Again, in my second post I stated that this was not an optional call. I really can't share anything beyond that; you will need to take that at face value.

As to your questions here, no I would not do anything different. I suspect that the pilots will have a few things that they would do differently here, and lets remember, it was their actions that drove these events. I am not happy about getting a fellow pilot in trouble, but should something come of this, the responsibility falls on their shoulders.

 

[MikeD]

And you are afforded that judgement, just as the FSDO is. Acadia however, puts himself in jeopardy to ignore the events. Nice to know so many people care more about 2 guys who put them self in that situation, as opposed to a long time good member of the community here who simply followed his obligation.

And some of you same guys protest throwing pilots under the bus. :dunno:

What part of "nothing personal, I'm commenting on a culture I see brewing" do you not seem to comprehend?

 

[mooneyguy]

Huh? Somewhere I missed the transition. Scabs? I don't know any scabs and so I can not answer for them but if you are talking about a culture where the attitude is to NAIL anyone making a mistake, we are talking about a very dysfunctional culture.

"You guys know you landed on a closed strip?" yes/no
"You guys know you put people at risk?" yes/no
"You guys know that such actions could be reported and the FSDO would probably suspend your tickets for a period?" yes/no
"You know your n numbers are very visible and this was a very stupid thing to do?" yes/no.

Don't do it again.

End of story. Guys go back, tell how they dodged a bullet and tell their friends, don't land at X. Everyone learns.

sounds like the best of both worlds to me!

We can all sit here and Monday morning quarterback, Probably will not solve anything. I believe we (the pilot population) should to a degree police ourselves. Waiting until someone becomes a smoking hole only puts us in the media spot light, not where we need to be. However reporting someone (pilot/to the faa) really should be last resort and absolutely necessary!

I have a friend who is in that situation right now. Knows of someone who might be a danger to himself, or others. It's not really a decision that is, or should be easy! the question is does he really know for sure that it is really that bad and really necessitates intervention.

Back to Monday morning QB'ing...was it really necessary to report (to the FAA) from what appears to us as a couple of weekend warriors out looking for a little flying adventure? guess it really doesn't matter what we think.

 

[MikeD]

Again, in my second post I stated that this was not an optional call. I really can't share anything beyond that; you will need to take that at face value.

As to your questions here, no I would not do anything different. I suspect that the pilots will have a few things that they would do differently here, and lets remember, it was their actions that drove these events. I am not happy about getting a fellow pilot in trouble, but should something come of this, the responsibility falls on their shoulders.

Assuming that this was not some kind of official business, are these pilots looking at anything worse than a warning from the FAA? Other than perhaps 91.13, did they violate any FAR?

See, this the part that bothers me. You clearly admit here that you don't know if they did anything wrong ("did they violate any FAR?"), yet report them anyway. Is that specifically required by the employer? I see you said it isn't optional, but are you meaning that you have ZERO discretion to use ANY judgement or initiative? If so, I'd love to know what kind of company promotes that way of thinking in their people

Remember the line from the movie Training Day? "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove." In this situation, you didn't even know. Thats whats bothersome.

And remember, YOU put up this thread here. If you don't want potential criticism, you shouldn't have posted it. But even then, I'm not directly criticizing you, I'm criticizing a culture I see. Oh, and criticizing your employer's directives, as you've written them...

Like I said, and I reiterate, I'm not bashing on you.....I'm using your example for where I see many people in this particular profession going. And I don't for the life of me know why.

 

[t-cart]

So having less then 50 some posts, i have no right to point out someone spelling mistakes? If you did not like what i posted, how about you be the better person and help your brother out with the spell check.

P.S I mentioned SPELLING NOT GRAMMAR.

Ha, Might want to spell check your post!

 

[mooneyguy]

So having less then 50 some posts, i have no right to point out someone spelling mistakes? If you did not like what i posted, how about you be the better person and help your brother out with the spell check.

P.S I mentioned SPELLING NOT GRAMMAR.

dude its an internet forum, its not English 101. A lot of the time I post from my phone, its real easy to miss typos, and honestly it just does NOT matter!

speaking of being a better person, just read the post for what it is. I'm sure you understood what Jerry was saying just fine.

If you grammar/spelling nazi types are so worried about it, take the time to send a pm to express your concern rather then making a post (completely OFF topic) trying to embarrass someone publicly.

 

[Acadia]

See, this the part that bothers me. You clearly admit here that you don't know if they did anything wrong ("did they violate any FAR?"), yet report them anyway. Is that specifically required by the employer? I see you said it isn't optional, but are you meaning that you have ZERO discretion to use ANY judgement or initiative? If so, I'd love to know what kind of company promotes that way of thinking in their people

Remember the line from the movie Training Day? "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove." In this situation, you didn't even know. Thats whats bothersome.

And remember, YOU put up this thread here. If you don't want potential criticism, you shouldn't have posted it. But even then, I'm not directly criticizing you, I'm criticizing a culture I see. Oh, and criticizing your employer's directives, as you've written them...

It is not up to me to decide if someone broke an FAR. I was asking what FAR might have been broken (if any). I can't get into specifics about acting for my employer, but as I have stated numerous times, the call to the FSDO was not optional. As a parallel explanation, if a pilot was caught landing for fun in an unauthorized area like a national park or a wild life refuge, do you think there would be any doubt about involving the FAA? My situation is not quite that extreme, but close enough.