GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED??

[Richman]

Hi Guys,

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but A LOT of places are getting out of the primary instruction biz. Rental places are drying up too, slowly but surely. Usually the reason is for insurance.

IMO, the days of the FBO "school/rental" shop and small to medium sized schools (5-25 airplanes) places are on the way out. Your going to wind up with very small "strip mall" schools (1-5 AC that don't rent to non-students), private renters clubs ($$$ up front for a "share") and huge ticket mills like PanAm, Comair, FS, etc. that charge beux coup dinero.

Places with a nice rental fleet (2-3 152s, 3-4 172s, a couple of PA-28s of various horsepower, a couple of retracts like a 172RG or a 28R, and maybe a high performance bird or two (182, M201 or something of that ilk) are already non-existant in South Florida (a hotbed of GA activity too).

What's funny though is all the places offering "advanced" instruction. Its actually funny, because after a while, with no primary schools, there won't be anyone left in the pipeline to take "advanced" instruction.

JMHO,
Richard

 

[ready2fly]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Guys,






JMHO,
Richard

[/ QUOTE ]
Richard - your "HO" is the biggest load of crap I've heard in this whole PFT debate.

Let me break it down for you using your response:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but A LOT of places are getting out of the primary instruction biz. Rental places are drying up too, slowly but surely. Usually the reason is for insurance.
IMO, the days of the FBO "school/rental" shop and small to medium sized schools (5-25 airplanes) places are on the way out. Your going to wind up with very small "strip mall" schools (1-5 AC that don't rent to non-students), private renters clubs ($$$ up front for a "share") and huge ticket mills like PanAm, Comair, FS, etc. that charge beux coup dinero.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, I nor anyone living within the state of Florida (other than you that is) has noticed the small FBO closing down.

I'll ask you to list, please - the names and locations of all the FBO's that you KNOW of (not heard of) that are now closed or no longer renting to "outsiders".

My FBO and the one I transferred from here in Tampa are QUITE active. They're taking on new students weekly (granted, not as many as pre-9/11, but it is increasing) and are even purchasing new aircraft.

Additionally, they both - as do all the FBO's in the Tampa area - still rent to those who are NOT taking lessons as well as those who are. What kind of business would take additional money OUT of their pockets by turning AWAY customers?

If anything is shutting down, I'd wager to say it's the "academy" style locations (read: ATA, ACA-The Academy (at LAL), and now possibly Gulfstream)..

The small FBO's seem to be doing very well.

[ QUOTE ]
Places with a nice rental fleet (2-3 152s, 3-4 172s, a couple of PA-28s of various horsepower, a couple of retracts like a 172RG or a 28R, and maybe a high performance bird or two (182, M201 or something of that ilk) are already non-existant in South Florida (a hotbed of GA activity too).


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Then you're not looking very hard. Here's a list of flight schools (Part 61 and Part 141) in SOUTH Florida:

Blue SKy Aviation - Venice
American Flying Academy - FXE, Ft. Lauderdale
Airborne Systems - Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport
International Flight Training - New Smyrna Beach
Pelican Flight Training Center - Hollywood
Epic Aviation - New Smyrna Beach
Florida Aviation Academy - Pompano Beach (KPMP)
Perfect Planes, Inc. - Umatilla
Tango One Flight Academy - Marathon, Florida Keys
Tradewinds Flight School - Ft. Pierce

That's just a few - all of them are STILL in business and going srong.

[ QUOTE ]
What's funny though is all the places offering "advanced" instruction. Its actually funny, because after a while, with no primary schools, there won't be anyone left in the pipeline to take "advanced" instruction.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's funny because it sounds like you actually BELIEVE this!!

Richard, I realize that you typed the acronym "JMHO" so that when you got flamed for making one of the most REDICULOUS, un-researched, un-founded statements on this site, you could fall back on "hey - it was just my opinion".

Here's a little advice - the next time you feel the need to state your "opinion", please (1) keep it to yourself (2) tell it to your handpuppet; and/or (30) research it then make it FACT - not opinion.


Peace.
R2F

 

[derg]

I think for aviation to remain viable, the small schools must survive. The airline business is such a small part of the world of aviation and if you've got to move thousands of miles, wear epaulets and spend $10,000 just to get a private to tool around the skies for fun on the weekends, we're toast!

 

[Richman]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

Post deleted by Doug Taylor

 

[aviator]

Insurance rates are getting extremely high for flight schools. I also agree that this has/will be most detremental to smaller FBO schools.

I don't see anything wrong the post.

 

[MikeD]

PFT, private pilots wearing gold epaulets in flight school, $$$$$$$ being milked by academies, FBOs/academies with FNG CFIs, new 172s for $250K, the decline of GA in general.....


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I feel better now.

 

[montanapilot]

i agree with mike about GA starting to take a turn for the worse. it makes me pissed that the average joe cant even buy an airplane these days my dad back in the late 60's bought a 172 for about $30,000 and now what do they want for it? $187,000 give me a break thats out of control. everything in aviation is starting to make it a rich mans game. after i get my license i was wanting go back to montana this summer and rent a plane in Great Falls to do some flying. I called one of the FBO's and they said that nobody on the field rents anymore cause they cant afford the insurance. a town of 60,000-70,000 people and you cant even rent a little 152 or 172. thats just my 2 cents

 

[ready2fly]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

[ QUOTE ]
Post deleted by Doug Taylor

[/ QUOTE ]
DADGUMMIT!!! Missed it!!! Somebody who saw the response, please drop me a PM.

Thanks
R2F

 

[derg]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

Nah, he wanted it deleted because he had a change of heart.

But that's the last one I'm going to delete because I really don't feel like being a secretary and dabbing whiteout when posters have a change of heart about verbiage.

 

[MikeD]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Post deleted by Doug Taylor

[/ QUOTE ]
DADGUMMIT!!! Missed it!!! Somebody who saw the response, please drop me a PM.

Thanks
R2F

[/ QUOTE ]

He said that you were a [DELETED]

 

[ready2fly]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

[ QUOTE ]
He said that you were a [DELETED]

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been called worse than a [DELETED].

 

[Richman]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

To all,

Nope, nothing deleted that was anything to talk about...just the facts as I have seen them, and I have seen alot of them.

In fact, I had yet another discussion today with a small operator out of TMB about the insurance problem and the long term problems that it's causing.

The reason I had the post deleted was that I choose not to engage in other than polite discussion. While my deleted post was polite and factual, I was pretty sure the response wasn't going to be, and I choose not to sully what is an otherwise polite and informative board with a pointless flame war.

I do have one question, however...since my original message had nothing to do about PFT, why the hostile response from R2F

?

Anyway...

Best,
Richman

P.S. I think the worst thing I said in my post was that your response was "less than polite"

 

[EatSleepFly]

Not trying to add fuel to the potential flame war, but I have to agree with pretty much everything Richman has said (deleted included).


[ QUOTE ]
Really? Then you're not looking very hard. Here's a list of flight schools (Part 61 and Part 141) in SOUTH Florida:

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you for a fact that at least a couple of those are struggling (probably more) for the very reasons being discussed.

I can also tell you that even at the FBO I work at (which has been in business since '66) things are tight. Insurance is getting out of hand, and business is around 50% of what it was estimated to be (based on previous years). Nobody can even fly our high performance aircraft unless they have 100 hrs. and an instrument rating...and most of those that do only fly enough to stay current because of the costs. Also, we can't rent to someone who just walks in the door unless they have our minimum requirements, and spend a few to several hours (determined on a case-by-case basis) with one of our instructors. The costs of flying for recreation are getting out of sight, and many many flight schools, small and large, are hurting right now (despite what they may claim).

 

[ananoman]

The price of aircraft has stayed relatively constant over time. The $30k paid for an aircraft in the 1960's works out to about $180k if you adjust for inflation. Remember that most cars cost less than $4k back then.

 

[ready2fly]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

[ QUOTE ]
I do have one question, however...since my original message had nothing to do about PFT, why the hostile response from R2F ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Simple, Richman - when you post something and pass it off as "fact", but do not support it with anything, your credibility is pretty much nil.

You made some statements as if they were the gospel, but gave nothing in support.

The PFT comment was in regards to Gulfstream, which is probably one of the biggets PFT schools out there.

FWIW - you still have not supported your statements with fact.

My "hostility" as you called it stems from those, not unlike yourself, who have continually put down the FBO route as a "thing of the past" and a "less-than-acceptable" means of training.

Generally, that arguments comes from someone who forked over the equivilent of the price of a luxury car to train at an academy and feels the only way to "justify" that decision is to degrade the more economical route - i.e., the FBO.

From where I sit, that's how your post came across. SO, no apologies for my post above.

 

[braidkid]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

Relax R2F...I don't believe Richman was knocking the FBO route. I believe he was simply stating FBO's are having a tougher time these days because of the rising insurance costs.

 

[sbe]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

Perhaps my viewpoint is simply a result of being a 'newbie' to aviation, but I don't see any new horrible trend here. Why is it that there is that old saying, "How do you make a little money in aviation? Start out with a lot of it." ?

Profit margins at FBOs have always been tight. I do agree that insurance is becoming more of a problem, I'll give you that.

I remember when I first started flying, I was sitting around the hangar with a friend of mine after a flight and he was telling me about where he learned to fly, when he was in college. (this was back in the late 70s) It was a small field that had a mess of a runway that was a mixture of asphalt, gravel, and grass. Mom'n Pop ran the operation, had two planes, he said he had no clue how they lived on what they pulled off that flight school. Lived upstairs over the hangar. But he said they were the happiest two people you would ever meet - they loved it.

My metropolitan area has a LOT of small(er) flight schools. In fact, the only 141 operation (to my knowledge) in town went Tango Uniform last year, it's the only school I've seen go out of business. This particular school had been around at a different local airport, but moved across the state line to a Class D field and went part 141. Got a bunch of shiny new Cessnas and had all kinds of cool sounding career programs. I don't think they made it a year after that point.

I can think of 13 part 61 schools in the immediate Kansas City metro area right off the top of my head. Now I cannot say how they are doing financially; I have no clue. All are well-established and have been around for a number of years, maybe with the exception of my flight school which was bought out 2 years ago by the current owner - still, it has been in that building in some form or another since my dad was learning to fly.

There's probably a surplus of CFIs in this area, 13 FBOs offering flight training is a LOT for a city the size of KC. I know the two FBOs I fly out of are very very busy. My flight school cut a 172N from the fleet last fall and added in its place two 172SPs. I thought that was a mistake because I didn't think people'd want to spend around $100/hr for a 172SP for their PPASEL training. Boy I was wrong, those planes have the pants flown off of them. The school just added a Garmin 430 on the Arrow without changing the rental price, and are actively looking at acquiring a twin.

Head north of that field 30 minutes, and there are two flight schools that are a throwback to days gone by. Two small uncontrolled fields. One has one CFI and two aircraft: a C150 that rents for $50/block and a C172 for $70/block. The other, which I rent from, has two CFIs and four aircraft: two C150s that rent $44/48/block, a 172N for $70/block, a Cherokee 140 for $50/block. Both operations have been around for ages. They're the kind of fields where people play football out on the ramp, have golf cart races, and sit around and barbeque/drink beer in the evenings during the summer.

They do exist. I love flying out of my Class D field but that little country 2900' x 20' strip with the Wednesday night barbeques is doing quite well and is just a slice of heaven.

But 13 long-lasting Part 61 operators in the area, I'd say we're safe for a while in being able to rent, fly, learn and teach.

As always JMHO.

Sarah

 

[ready2fly]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

[ QUOTE ]
Relax R2F...I don't believe Richman was knocking the FBO route. I believe he was simply stating FBO's are having a tougher time these days because of the rising insurance costs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Braid - thanks man - and believe me when I say, that I'm not all worked up about Richman's post. In fact, I found it laughable at best.

The smaller FBO's are generally ALWAYS going to have a hard row to hoe - that's beent he case since day one, so in that regard, I don't disagree.

What I take issue with is the statement that the FBO is on the way out. I could not disagree more.

I simply responded with fact and have yet to receive the same courtesy in exchange.

That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less. One of the problems with the internet is that there's no way to interpret tone.

If Richman wants to interpret my response as hostile - so be it. I can't help that. But, I would appreciate him backing his overall statement with fact. I don't think he can. If I'm wrong - I'm wrong. I'm man enough to admit that. Sad others don't seem to have that trait.

 

[Richman]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

Hello R2F,

Braidkid is right. I am in no way knocking the FBO route...considering thats the way I that trained. My points are completely seperate from the whole PFT/Gulfstream thing. I hate PFT as much as anyone. I think the fact that my post was in this topic may have given you the wrong impression.

My point is that the traditional FBO...one where you get gas, MX, grab a coke and park your plane over night are for the most part getting out of the training business. Insurance and liability reasons are usually the two culprits.

Two of the largest operators in South Florida, Pompano Air Center and CavAir are gone, sold out or out of business. Both places were traditional FBOs that had a large school and rental fleet. These places were huge (CavAir had something like 20 planes at one point, which is BIG for a FBO fleet, and PAC was THE place to train for acro).

Now, there is not a single FBO at FXE or PMP that provides traning or rental services. The flight adaemy at PMP is seperate from the FBO...but they WILL rent to non-students at outrageous prices with lots of restrictions...they make it a point to tell you thats not really their business. There are a two places at FXE (AFC and Airborne), but these are NOT FBOs, rather "storefront" schools, where that is their only business.

At TMB, there are no schools/rental facilities associated with any FBOs.

Pretty much the same story throughout South Florida (which, geographically speaking, does not include New Symrna Beach)

I have a friend who runs a small school down in South Miami. He tells me that with the insurance the way it is, one accident or one serious incident and he is out of business, because he will not be able to afford the rate hike. Everyone in the business is on pins and needles.

In the end, my point stands.

Best to all,
Richman

 

[ready2fly]

Re: GULFSTREAM ACADEMY CLOSED?? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

[ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who runs a small school down in South Miami. He tells me that with the insurance the way it is, one accident or one serious incident and he is out of business, because he will not be able to afford the rate hike. Everyone in the business is on pins and needles.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. Thank you.

But, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think that it's something that is "symptomatic" so much as it is the industry standard (for an FBO). I think the small FBO will always have problems when times are tough. Some will fold, others will not, but my point of contention with your assessment is that I do not believe that, while many are "struggling"... they are not in immenant danger of closing.

That's my point. Thank you for your clarification.

R2F