Guilty by association?

[ZeroPapaGolf]

If a person holding a pilot's license is in a cockpit seat of an aircraft (but not the PIC or even flying it) and an FAR is broken, is the person subject to fines/suspention/revocation?

 

[jrh]

I think a lot depends on how much experience each pilot has. Each situation is different and the FAA looks at incidents on a case by case basis. If you're a brand new private pilot flying as a passenger with a 2000 hour CFI at the controls, and the CFI busts somebody's airspace, I think the FAA would look at it differently than if a private pilot were flying and an experienced CFI was technically a passenger.

I once heard of an ATP rated pilot that got violated when he was in the back seat on a XC, riding along with two commercial students in the front seats. Supposedly since he had more experience the FAA held him responsible for the other pilots busting a reg. Who knows if that's a true story though. Sounds somewhat plausible, but could definately be urban legend that stems from some pilots' distaste for the FAA.

All I can say is that I'm careful with things like that. I had a couple students pass checkrides this summer. When we got in the plane to leave the examiner's airport I said, "Congratulations, have fun. You're PIC now, I'm not going to give you dual for this flight. I'm going to kick back and chill as a passenger for once. Try not to kill us." I let them do everything without saying a word, but you better believe I stayed on my toes just as much as I do when I'm actually instructing.

 

[Philip]

I'm with jrh, it's going to fall on the highest rated pilot in the airplane. I doubt the fresh PPL is going to tell the FAA he was PIC the whole time and the CFI in the right seat was just a PAX, he'll lie as much as possible.
Maybe I'm a pessimist.

Along the lines of his story, my CFI round school instructor said that he could be considered PIC sitting in the back, as he was the highest rated....

 

[Windchill]

Re:Guilty By Association

Congratulations, have fun. You're PIC now, I'm not going to give you dual for this flight. I'm going to kick back and chill as a passenger for once.

Did you charge him for that leg?

This is where being PIC should be what counts! PIC has final authority, which includes final responsibility ... unless you're forcing yourself on the controls which he, himself can't control.

 

[Champcar]

If the FAA wants to get you they will find a way.

 

[jrh]

Did you charge him for that leg?

Nah, I don't charge dual for the trip out or back on checkride day. I'm sure I'll get flamed for that one...

On the trip out I'm there for two reasons--I want to come along and be there in person for my student's checkride in case there are any problems and because I don't want the liability of signing off on any more solo cross countries than necessary. By the time they're going for a checkride, it's not like they need me there anyway, so it's not like I'm actually giving instruction. Just transportation and covering my own butt.

As for the "You're PIC, I'm a passenger" talk on the trip home, I say that more for building their confidence than anything else. Sure, I could keep giving them pointers, but that's what those 50 hours XC time are for with the instrument rating. They'll learn more on their own and be better pilots than they ever would with me telling them what to do. As for my logbook...I figure that .7 hours of dual given C-152 time doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things. I can pass that up once in a while.

 

[Philip]

. They'll learn more on their own and be better pilots than they ever would with me telling them what to do.

agree 100%. this is the biggest complaint I have about the 141 program I went to, not enough solo flights, too much handholding.

I still remember the "license to learn" speech my part 61 instructor gave me after my private ride