Great Lakes lives on...

How so? If you want to live in the sticks, deal with all that comes with living in the sticks, or pay a full fair ticket, not one that is government subsidized.
Well, where does that mindset stop? Is it our problem that people have built a city below sea level in New Orleans? Or constantly build houses in the mountains that they know will burn down in California? Or what about those millions of people living in the cities who don't have sustainable food or water supplies who rely on those people in the sticks. There'd be a lot more problems than subsidizing someone's ride from Sheridan to Denver if the "How is that a rest of the United States problem" mindset was more prevalent.
 
Imagine if GLA becomes the regional to be with in 5 years. If Mesa can come back and be one of the premier E175 operators, I wouldn't be surprised. This industry has shocked me enough, I think.
 
Well, where does that mindset stop? Is it our problem that people have built a city below sea level in New Orleans? Or constantly build houses in the mountains that they know will burn down in California? Or what about those millions of people living in the cities who don't have sustainable food or water supplies who rely on those people in the sticks. There'd be a lot more problems than subsidizing someone's ride from Sheridan to Denver if the "How is that a rest of the United States problem" mindset was more prevalent.

Yeah, your right. Let's stop all the subsidies in the nation all together. If you take what I'm saying from a lack of necessity al the way to a want for convenience, I see no further point in discussing this topic with you. There is having a debate about something, then there is what you are saying. Completely ridiculous, way off base, and pointless arguments.

P.S. Have a look at New Orleans since Katrina. There hasn't really been much "subsidies" pumped into the city. And the rest of us, and those who fled seem to be surviving. And I live in California, where houses "burn down in the mountains." I have friends who have lost their homes. They understand AND accept the risks of living in the mountains. It's not subsidized. It's called insurance, that THEY pay for. And THEY pay extra for the privilege of living there in the form of increased insurance premiums. Simple concept to understand really.
 
Mshunter said, in part:
If you ask people who do economic development for a living, they'd tell you that a new employer is much less likely to locate in a city with lousy, or no air service. That employer benefits the municipality with a larger tax base, more / better employed people who also pay taxes, things they buy in the local economy, and more. They locate 'in the middle of no where' for solid economic reasons: access to raw materials, convenience to their customers, the kind of labor force they need at an appropriate cost, tax incentives, quality of life which attracts specialty skilled employees, etc.

These are not stupid choices, any more than where Mshunter chooses to live, and commute to and from his job, is.

Just to add to your point, and give a little example.

JeldWen is a huge company that manufactures windows and doors. They are located in the small (40k people) town of Klamath Falls, OR. They are positioned there for the simple reason of having easy access to timber and supplies. Klamath Falls is a city that receives EAS services. They have been in a constant battle with various airlines over the past 5+ years to keep air service. JeldWen was recently purchased by another company from back east. The new company wanted to move JeldWen production out of the area, which would effect thousands of jobs in Klamath Falls. The reason? Klamath was without air service for a short period of time during the purchase of the company.

So in short...by offering subsidized funding for airservice, the government essentially saved thousands of jobs and a huge economic boost for the area.
 
Quite alot of people out in the sticks don't make the choice to live there, they're stuck.

There is no such thing as "being stuck" somewhere. It's called will. Thousands of people who are "stuck" make a trek across the desert, have saved for years to be able to come to the USA Every. Freaking. Day. You do what you have to do to survive. I've moved around quite a bit over the last few years, on what is considered "poverty wages." I saved every last penny, and did it, because I had to. Hell, I came back to California for North Dakota with barely enough money in the bank to pay for the gas to get here. You do what is necessary to survive. People do it all the time. You can sit there dwelling on the fact that "you're stuck," or you can do something about it.
 
Mshunter said, in part:
If you ask people who do economic development for a living, they'd tell you that a new employer is much less likely to locate in a city with lousy, or no air service. That employer benefits the municipality with a larger tax base, more / better employed people who also pay taxes, things they buy in the local economy, and more. They locate 'in the middle of no where' for solid economic reasons: access to raw materials, convenience to their customers, the kind of labor force they need at an appropriate cost, tax incentives, quality of life which attracts specialty skilled employees, etc.

These are not stupid choices, any more than where Mshunter chooses to live, and commute to and from his job, is.
Just to add to your point, and give a little example.

So these companies receive tax breaks, and choose to operate in places where the COL is low, and access to cheap labor, cheap materials, etc., is easy. I get that. But EAS, that is the companies problem for choosing to set up shop there. Everything comes with a trade off, at a sacrifice. Theirs should be either higher ticket prices, or a longer drive to get to an airport.

JeldWen is a huge company that manufactures windows and doors. They are located in the small (40k people) town of Klamath Falls, OR. They are positioned there for the simple reason of having easy access to timber and supplies. Klamath Falls is a city that receives EAS services. They have been in a constant battle with various airlines over the past 5+ years to keep air service. JeldWen was recently purchased by another company from back east. The new company wanted to move JeldWen production out of the area, which would effect thousands of jobs in Klamath Falls. The reason? Klamath was without air service for a short period of time during the purchase of the company.

So in short...by offering subsidized funding for airservice, the government essentially saved thousands of jobs and a huge economic boost for the area.

Had they set up shop somewhere other than Klamath Falls, the government (read -you-) would have never had to step in to save jobs in the first place. If JeldWen is such a huge company, how do they survive in a town of only 40K people. Do people commute in from surrounding cities? I've been to Klamath Falls. I spent a week there when I flew charter. Not exactly a super nice town. It is beautiful there, but it's in the middle of no where. There are plenty of other places to set up shop.

But the circle jerk of all of this is it's still costing the people who use EAS. It may be off set by taxing the entire nation, but it still costs. It's not free. I would rather see these companies get a subsidy that moves them closer to somewhere that doesn't require EAS, and it's constant supply of money, so they can receive a one time "rebate" to move the shop where it isn't costing millions a year to keep some Podunk Nowhereville airport alive because "Dey dook aer jerbs!" Basically, the way I see it, is if you want to set up shop in Klamath Falls, you have to accept all that comes with setting up shop in Klamath falls. Including having limited access to certain things, like quick, easy access to air transportation.

Just as a point of reference. My grandmother lives in Lake Havasu. There used to be airline service in and out of there in RJ's I believe. They pulled out because there wasn't enough demand, and not enough money to be made. Now my grandmother has to make quite a trek to get to an airport that has service. She is handicapped. About ten years ago, the took 3/4's of one of her legs. So now, she makes the drive down for the holidays, birthdays, etc. She is on a fixed, and very limited income. But she does it out of necessity. Jobs didn't leave the area by the thousands, the town didn't all of the sudden dry up. And it's population is about the same as Klamath Falls (52K). To get to a city that has an airport you can hop on something, you are either going to drive to Phoenix or Las Vegas, both of which are about a 2-3hr drive. To drive from Klamath Falls to Medford only takes just over an hour. So, EAS in a place like Klamath Falls is a complete waste of money. I pend that much time driving to the airport to start my commute. Should I have a subsidized way of transportation to get to LAX now? Or how about granny? Should she be given a "gas voucher" since there isn't any EAS into Lake Havasu?
 
Had they set up shop somewhere other than Klamath Falls, the government (read -you-) would have never had to step in to save jobs in the first place. If JeldWen is such a huge company, how do they survive in a town of only 40K people. Do people commute in from surrounding cities? I've been to Klamath Falls. I spent a week there when I flew charter. Not exactly a super nice town. It is beautiful there, but it's in the middle of no where. There are plenty of other places to set up shop.

I see your point. However, in this case the company did not "set up shop" there. It was created there. The original owners are residents there. They are located there for the ease of access to the timber as I said. All of the jobs, including corporate, were oregon based. However, when the new company purchased them they had their own corporate. JeldWen and the mills that supply the lumber are the main employers of the klamath basin. If you do not work for either then chances are you are involved in farming. So they "survive" in a rural area because the residents work there. As far as people commuting in....that was the issue with the new company taking over. No air service meant their corporate team could not easily commute in. Thus, they threatened to move the production. Citizens raised hell and got the air service to stay. As a result, the new company kept production in the area. Residents were literally counting on the air service to save their jobs.

I understand your point, and I'm not really going to argue on either side. Just giving an example of EAS, IMO, saving a small economy.
 
I see your point. However, in this case the company did not "set up shop" there. It was created there. The original owners are residents there. They are located there for the ease of access to the timber as I said. All of the jobs, including corporate, were oregon based. However, when the new company purchased them they had their own corporate. JeldWen and the mills that supply the lumber are the main employers of the klamath basin. If you do not work for either then chances are you are involved in farming. So they "survive" in a rural area because the residents work there. As far as people commuting in....that was the issue with the new company taking over. No air service meant their corporate team could not easily commute in. Thus, they threatened to move the production. Citizens raised hell and got the air service to stay. As a result, the new company kept production in the area. Residents were literally counting on the air service to save their jobs.

I understand your point, and I'm not really going to argue on either side. Just giving an example of EAS, IMO, saving a small economy.

That's great that EAS saved all those jobs. I truly mean that. But it's a convenience, that is subsidized by tax payers.
 
That's great that EAS saved all those jobs. I truly mean that. But it's a convenience, that is subsidized by tax payers.

You are correct, but this convenience may pay for itself in the form of increased benefits to everyone; for instance, lower paper and wood product prices since JeldWen can exist nearer its supply. Not all subsidies are a waste, nor do they all even lose money when compared to the benefits they create. It just may be difficult to quantify those benefits.
 
Subsidies exist, basically, to correct inadvertent problems, to even out inequities, to right wrongs. They make government fairer to more people. They were created as a response to the Law of Unintended Consequences.

When Cornell Professor Alfred Kahn designed the Airline Deregulation Act (passed in 1978), one of the consequences was that airlines were free to dump service to low-traffic cities, in return for a free-market economy to go where they wanted, and charge what they could get away with. Most citizens benefitted with fares that are still much lower, more people started traveling, whether it's Great Aunt Kate traveling to see the grand-kiddies or a small businessman from New York to Klamath Falls to buy doors & windows. But this guy could no longer get to Klamath Falls. The Klamath Fallses cried 'You've changed the rule book, and you screwed us.'

Congress said 'Oops, you're right, we'll fix it.' They're been fixing it, via EAS, ever since and they've done better than the military with their $4K toilet seats also available at Home Depot for a bit less. The most egregious wastes of money have been curtailed, and the average subsidy is around $78 per passenger per flight, with incentives for increasing the number of PAX using of the service.

(When you look at EAS, you have to look only at the continental 48 states. Alaska and Hawaii are so different they they skew any results.)

Government exists to serve the citizens of this country, not just those who choose to live in cities.

I now live in Florida, 75 minutes from Orlando International Airport. No EAS service currently exists in Florida, nor should it. But when I buy a Jeld-Wen window or door, I'm glad the Home Depot buyer can now get to Klamath Falls.
 
Subsidies exist, basically, to correct inadvertent problems, to even out inequities, to right wrongs. They make government fairer to more people. They were created as a response to the Law of Unintended Consequences.

When Cornell Professor Alfred Kahn designed the Airline Deregulation Act (passed in 1978), one of the consequences was that airlines were free to dump service to low-traffic cities, in return for a free-market economy to go where they wanted, and charge what they could get away with. Most citizens benefitted with fares that are still much lower, more people started traveling, whether it's Great Aunt Kate traveling to see the grand-kiddies or a small businessman from New York to Klamath Falls to buy doors & windows. But this guy could no longer get to Klamath Falls. The Klamath Fallses cried 'You've changed the rule book, and you screwed us.'

Congress said 'Oops, you're right, we'll fix it.' They're been fixing it, via EAS, ever since and they've done better than the military with their $4K toilet seats also available at Home Depot for a bit less. The most egregious wastes of money have been curtailed, and the average subsidy is around $78 per passenger per flight, with incentives for increasing the number of PAX using of the service.

(When you look at EAS, you have to look only at the continental 48 states. Alaska and Hawaii are so different they they skew any results.)

Government exists to serve the citizens of this country, not just those who choose to live in cities.

I now live in Florida, 75 minutes from Orlando International Airport. No EAS service currently exists in Florida, nor should it. But when I buy a Jeld-Wen window or door, I'm glad the Home Depot buyer can now get to Klamath Falls.

Hmm, 75 minutes eay. Guess how long the drive is from Medford....bout 75 minutes.
 
In snow? When the road isn't closed due to snow?

Comes with the area. Live where it snows, and you might have to deal with snow. But we could keep throwing out every random act of mother nature if you want. Florida, hurricanes come through, and sometimes roads are impassable, I lived there through two of them. California, we get mudslides every time it rains. It you get the grapevine and Cajon pass closed because of snow. But the people of Frazier park and the Antelope valley get but just fine without EAS. Hell, people make the daily commute from there to LA. And sometimes the 15 is pretty nasty when there is a good storm. That road gets really slushy, and sometimes is closed. With this "storm" that's coming, and score down to 2k feet, you can bet that it'll be closed, seeing as it peaks at just under 5k if memory serves correct. If it's the dry season, you might have a wild fire that shuts down huge portions of road. I remember the station fire shutting down a big chunk of the 210 freeway.
 
It you get the grapevine and Cajon pass closed because of snow. But the people of Frazier park and the Antelope valley get but just fine without EAS. Hell, people make the daily commute from there to LA. And sometimes the 15 is pretty nasty when there is a good storm. That road gets really slushy, and sometimes is closed. With this "storm" that's coming, and score down to 2k feet, you can bet that it'll be closed, seeing as it peaks at just under 5k if memory serves correct.

No! I have to pick up my wife at LAX tomorrow afternoon!
 
No! I have to pick up my wife at LAX tomorrow afternoon!

Good luck! If they close the 14, you might be able to make it through using Bouquet Canyon or San Fransicquito Canyon. Maybe even the Sierra Highway or Soledad Canyon. My friend commutes from the AV to Chatsworth everyday, and she somehow manages to make it every time. She also grew up in Washington where the snow is a crap ton worse than anything we get resembling weather here in SoCal. A lot of times, they leave one or two of those open she says. But there has been a few occasions where I have ended up on the couch because she didn't want to make the drive home through the crap ass weather. When you have to take one of the canyon roads because the weather sucks, it's a long trek.
 
Great Lakes did have the Montana routes for a while, but used Denver for a hub. When Gulfstream/Silver Wings took over, they used Billings as a hub and the residents in HVR, GGW, OLF, GDV, and SDY seemed to like it better. Silver used to go to LWT, but it was dropped from the EAS. They tried a route from BIL-HLN as a revenue flight, but couldn't keep the passengers to make it profitable.

Cape Air has been in Billings for a year now and they've been great to work with. Always sticking to their schedules and really nice group of pilots. I don't think they need pressurized, they almost always cruise between 7,000 and 10,000. Maybe reaching 11,000 if the ride gets pretty rough at 9 or 10. As long as they stick to central and eastern Montana the 402's are the plane to use.

Also Silver would only ever go on IFR clearances, whereas Cape goes VFR at least half the time depending on the pilot. The last group of pilots was almost always VFR and it was rare to see a few of them pick up an IFR.
 
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