Great Lakes Airlines pilots ask mediation release

ATN_Pilot said:
First, contracts under the RLA don't expire. They just become amendable. The contract continues into perpetuity until an amendment is agreed upon.

But more to the point, BobDDuck is absolutely right about this. When unions propose the kinds of provisions that you're talking about, management always complains (and has some credibility in doing so) that with continual raises after the amendable date, unions lose their motivation to come to the table for a new deal. Contracts that have gone past their amendable dates are sometimes seen by management as a liability, because they worry shareholders and lending institutions. It is one more thing in the "risk" column. Therefore, companies want to know that if they're ready to get a new deal, that it isn't going to be a problem for them to get one. If you have automatic 3% raises built into your CBA past the amendable date, and other carriers have only been getting 2% raises (or even staying flat), then your motivation to come to the table is non-existent. The NMB understands this just like management does, so they don't have too much sympathy for a labor group trying to secure these kinds of provisions. And without the support of the NMB, you get nowhere.

Generally, the only time it is possible to obtain the kinds of provisions you're lucking for is during concessionary bargaining, where the company is looking for big cuts from you, and the way they get you to agree to them is by accepting this sort of provision that will start giving automatic raises at some point late in the deal. The Mesaba MEC was able to gain this provision in their bankruptcy CBA, for example.
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Umm don't know if I entirely agree with you.. I know from my experience at my last carrier they took full advantage of the RLA and dragged out negotiations for years and while you point about shareholders being concerned about having open contracts it apparently didn't have an effect in my case and I went through 2 contract negotiations and it happened both times and what really needs to happen is that the union in a case of a company dragging out negotiations is never vote in a new one unless it has full retro pay back to the amendable date which virtually never happens it is always some token "bonus" and once again the airline is rewarded for letting a 5 yr contract go to 8 or 9 yrs.
 
bkey79 said:
Not trying to sound like an ass, but I don't feel like I need to explain my decisions for my future to you nor anyone on this board. If you really want to know, PM me as I don't want to start any internet arguments.
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Please tell me you didn't to ATP?!?
 
FXMXC said:
Umm don't know if I entirely agree with you.. I know from my experience at my last carrier they took full advantage of the RLA and dragged out negotiations for years and while you point about shareholders being concerned about having open contracts it apparently didn't have an effect in my case
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It depends on the circumstances. If a company wants to get something done, like say a merger or an aircraft order, then they generally need the pilot contract to be done. If a company has nothing major going on for a long time, then yes, they can be very happy to stall for a while. That's where being reasonable and painting a good picture for the NMB comes in handy, because you can get your release to self help.

and I went through 2 contract negotiations and it happened both times and what really needs to happen is that the union in a case of a company dragging out negotiations is never vote in a new one unless it has full retro pay back to the amendable date which virtually never happens it is always some token "bonus" and once again the airline is rewarded for letting a 5 yr contract go to 8 or 9 yrs.
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Unfortunately, the NMB will generally not support you in demands for "full retro." Companies are usually unable to afford to huge check that would have to be cut for it. For example, full retro for AirTran would have been in the range of $150-200 million. That's about half of total pilot payroll for a year. The company simply couldn't afford to pay for it, and the NMB is never going to support anything that will bankrupt a company. Without support from the NMB, you will stall in negotiations forever, and you'll never get a new CBA. Holding out isn't going to help you, because the NMB will never let you strike if they view your demands as unreasonable.
 
If a contract expires and a new one isn't in place or at the very minimum very close to being finished, everyone should be walking off their job. The RLA prevents this, that's why I could never support such a management slanted organization.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It depends on the circumstances. If a company wants to get something done, like say a merger or an aircraft order, then they generally need the pilot contract to be done. If a company has nothing major going on for a long time, then yes, they can be very happy to stall for a while. That's where being reasonable and painting a good picture for the NMB comes in handy, because you can get your release to self help.



Unfortunately, the NMB will generally not support you in demands for "full retro." Companies are usually unable to afford to huge check that would have to be cut for it. For example, full retro for AirTran would have been in the range of $150-200 million. That's about half of total pilot payroll for a year. The company simply couldn't afford to pay for it, and the NMB is never going to support anything that will bankrupt a company. Without support from the NMB, you will stall in negotiations forever, and you'll never get a new CBA. Holding out isn't going to help you, because the NMB will never let you strike if they view your demands as unreasonable.
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Yes you are right that is why you never see full retro but my point is the airlines make out by dragging out the contract because they know they will never have to pay full retro. Funny thing about the NMB is it also takes forever to get a release to self help but in my case with NWA and AMFA in 2005 we got a release immediately..When have you EVER seen that happen? ..It happened because NW wanted it that way to force us on strike and bust our union.
 
FXMXC said:
Funny thing about the NMB is it also takes forever to get a release to self help but in my case with NWA and AMFA in 2005 we got a release immediately..When have you EVER seen that happen? ..It happened because NW wanted it that way to force us on strike and bust our union.
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Of course it was. That's what happens when the NMB is under the control of a far-right administration like the Bush administration. Whatever management wanted, management got. Vote accordingly.
 
cmill said:
I just looked at the pay rates and im still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor. I know ive ranted against regional pay rates before, but this is a prime example of people still showing up for the job, even though they know the pay sucks.

Instead of taking a 14k/yr job, then striking to get the pay raised, why dont you just not take the job in the first place?
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the worst part about this is that the flt attendants make more than FO's do....the only thing is this....they dont want to spend money and they have already stretched out their fleet to the max....they want to add cities yet they wont buy new planes...we have averaged about 70 plus delays, 12 to 20 cancellations and 7 aircraft out of service in a weeks time...with 7 planes out of service...that is nore than 1/3 of the fleet...I am not sure whats gonna happen but they best figure something out...before something bad happens god forbid....making 14K a yr is pathetic yes...but they know its a stepping stone to get where you want to get to fly jets...I know a lot of folks that work for this company in different areas make no mistake they are not happy with the pay either....I am not happy with what I make....yet I have to start somewhere...as do the new pilots...yet not being paid poverty wages...I know 3 pilots that are sharing a 1 bdrm apt in ISN and they share it with 2 others...so there you have 5 people in a one bdrm apt....that is absolutely vulgar, the very fact of 5 people sharing a 1 bdrm apt like some bunch of immigrants....the company should buy at least 2 houses and give our pilots some sort of break when they are based out of there...the only thing they are worried about is the EAS money and thnking that they can still operate the same amount of aircraft...well....I'm no expert (nor is there any in this industry) I know that with X amount of cycles and hrs that are put on the aircraft tends to cause fatigue...something is going to happen and then all hell is gonna break loose....as I understand it our maint people havent had a contract in 10 yrs...and they are still turning wrenches for the company, some leave and double their wage from day 1....by going to someone that will pay them what they are worth and not have to worry about an owner that hides money and is so tight that you can shove a lump of coal up his ass and in 2 weeks you would have a diamond...I just hope for the sake of those in Denver and various other cities that we service...this gets taken care of soon..
 
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