GRAB CARD and AV1ATE, instrument MEL question

J

Jared Brunson

New Member
I have a friend with a cherokee 160 (penn-yann conversion) and he has all of the "grab card" equipment and the av1ate checks done, he isn't an instrument rated pilot, but wants me to teach him some instrument stuff now that I am a cfi and a cfii as of today.. His Cherokee has 2 vor nav Coms in the panel but no glideslope or ifr certified gps.. I know I can give him all the instruction he wants on vor and localizer approaches on VFR day, but Is this equipment enough to legally fly IMC? He can't get his instrument rating in a plane with no glideslope or gps can he?
 
Does he have an ADF? The issue you'll run into is the required 250NM IFR cross country flight. For that flight you'll have to conduct three different types of approaches and with that equipment you're limited to just two.
 
There are actually two separate questions here. From what you are saying, it sounds like his plane is legal to fly in IMC. Remember, in GRABCARD, all you need for navigation is the radios required for the flight. So, if you can plan a flight that's entirely by airways, and only requires VOR approaches, you are good to go (Just remember to consider if it is safe...).

On the training part, you technically don't require an IFR capable airplane for instrument training as long as you stay VFR. So, you can easily do some of his training in his airplane, particularly basic attitude instruction. However, you will need a plane capable of precision-like approaches for some of the training and the checkride.

Ref: 91.205(d)(2)
(See also 91.131(c)(1))
Instrument PTS FAA-S-8081-4E
(Read "Aircraft and Equipment required for the practical test")
 
Wow, thanks for the help guys! You all touched on points that I had reviewed in my own mind, confirmation is everything when u have ratings and raw knowledge with low time experience! And it won't be in the poh bc of the thousands of different configurations that Cherokees come in, not only that, but his panel was modified by the previous owner and he has little documentation on those modifications.. I will have to figure something out for dme, maybe his handheld gps can be used for reference, but obviously he will have to make a panel change or two before becoming rated in this aircraft..
 
Thanks again hammertime, I read thru the pts and it said 2 non precision and one precision approach must be shot.. Couple of Quick follow up questions.. If he buys a glideslope radio and instrument, will he also need the marker beacon lights installed if he doesn't have any dme? He plans to buy a garmin 396 which will help with distance but since it isn't ifr certified he cant use it for dme, correct? Can he just listen for the tone on the localizer frequency or will he need the lights to make it "precision"?
 
No problem! You are exactly right on the approaches. You are also right on the 396. It has to be a panel mount (read: mounted by an avionics tech...) gps to be certified for IFR use.

There are three components to an ILS: Guidance (vertical and horizontal), range, and visual (approach lights). Range information can be provided by any of several things: Marker beacons (only the OM is required for Cat I), DME, LOM, or crossing radials. So, the range equipment you need depends on the ILS approaches around you. He will most likely need a separate marker beacon antenna and receiver, as marker beacons operate on a different frequency than localizers. To make this a viable IFR aircraft I would recommend this and DME or an IFR certified GPS.

Your student/aircraft owner may want to do a price analysis on renting versus what it will cost to make his airplane into a viable IFR aircraft. (Note, while a top of the line Garmin panel is nice, he may be able to get some used equipment that works just as well.)

I'm on the road, so I don't have chapter and verse on all this, but the AIM has a lot of good information on instruments approaches and equipment. I think the ILS stuff is somewhere around 1-3-xx
 
Your questions have abley answered. For my own part, I'd just like to comment that I think it's awesome that someone is still flying a Cherokee 160 without a glideslope, let alone four Garmin 530s. Tell him should take the ADF out too, those things weigh a ton and the 160 ain't exactly a 210 in terms of "throw it in and go"!
 
Even for IFR you should start with 91.213 not 91.205. While this deals with inoperative instruments and equipment if should point you in the right direction. For example, if the airplane was certified under FAR 23 Pitot heat is required for IFR (23.1323). If the airplane was certified IFR under CAR 3 Pitot heat is not required. However, if the airplane was certified VFR under CAR 3 then it will have to be fitted with Pitot heat if you want to certify it for IFR (I seem to remember flying a Cherokee once where this was the case).
As for legal IFR for navigation, just a VOR should do it, though I have flown airplanes that list GPS in the Kinds of operations list under IFR.
 
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