GPS on an NDB approach

[inigo88]

"Children of the magenta line" man...

 

[Roger Roger]

Again, a legit excuse, but one which has nothing to do with the main argument. OF COURSE if the particular NDB approach navaid is bad, then don't use it. But that doesn't mean that every NDB is a completely inaccurate POS. NDB approaches are a great skill builder to have and are a great SA as well as instrument pilot skills honing tool. Why so many people want to mindlessly follow some magenta line all the time, something that takes nearly zero skill, is perplexing. No one wants a challenge, or use of some brain power to think, or a sense of accomplishment anymore, when there is a legitimate chance to be able to do it.

One would think that guys here having to fly an NDB approach, are being asked to perform celestial navigation with a sextant or something.....sheesh

You sound like the old geezers from back when the young'ns whose bread and butter were VORs complained about flying the last few four course ranges....

 

[JDean3204]

BTDT in actual, minus the GPS. Whats the difficulty and apprehension here even with doing it full panel? I mean, seriously. If the IAP requires NDB only, then fly the damn NDB instead of trying to urgently find every way to avoid it. What the hell have we come to? Is tracking an NDB course inbound or outbound that much of a rocket science maneuver nowdays, that the current crop of GPS-monkeys need to find every way to avoid it in order to keep their heads from exploding, or actually have to use a brain cell to do something more than mindlessly following a magenta line on a screen?

I Wasn't implying that the approach itself was hard, I have only shot a few NDB approaches, they are not that "mind blowing" as long as you constantly have a way to calculate your bearing TO or FROM the station, especially when doing a full procedure. That is why I mentioned utilizing the GPS for a more accurate reference in bearing (grd trk) only during Partial Panel, not following a magenta line.

Knowing that the ADF needle can have some oscillation and inaccuracies, it seems using the compass that fluctuates quite frequently as well during the course of an approach may lead to a potentially inaccurate calculation on bearing relative to the NDB Still I am new to this game and it may just be my inexperience talking...

 

[MikeD]

You sound like the old geezers from back when the young'ns whose bread and butter were VORs complained about flying the last few four course ranges....

Im just trying to get guys to not be afraid to challenge themselves a bit, with a navaid that's still in active use. Pilots these days are seeming lazy, just wanting to drone from A to B without having to do anything that makes them think a bit or hone their skills a bit, sitting on autopilot and watching the magenta line creep by while they drink their Starbucks. Nothing Im advocating is even remotely rocket science, but guys have gotten this thought in their heads that NDBs are unsafe, or too much work, or takes too much thinking, or requires a bit of multitasking, or whatever.

Challenge yourselves a bit, people. Keep the skills sharp. Because when the day comes when the "magenta crap" goes tits-up in IMC, one doesn't want to end up a smoking hole in the ground because you left your instrument skills back on the ground at your departure airport, years ago. Assuming said pilot ever had them in the first place.....

 

[Roger Roger]

Im just trying to get guys to not be afraid to challenge themselves a bit, with a navaid that's still in active use. Pilots these days are seeming lazy, just wanting to drone from A to B without having to do anything that makes them think a bit or hone their skills a bit, sitting on autopilot and watching the magenta line creep by while they drink their Starbucks. Nothing Im advocating is even remotely rocket science, but guys have gotten this thought in their heads that NDBs are unsafe, or too much work, or takes too much thinking, or requires a bit of multitasking, or whatever.

Challenge yourselves a bit, people. Keep the skills sharp. Because when the day comes when the "magenta crap" goes tits-up in IMC, one doesn't want to end up a smoking hole in the ground because you left your instrument skills back on the ground at your departure airport, years ago. Assuming said pilot ever had them in the first place.....

Ok, fine, I'll get off your lawn!

But really, excellent points. If your aircraft has the equipment, best be ready and willing to use it.

 

[MikeD]

Still I am new to this game and it may just be my inexperience talking...

You got this part right. And that's not a slam on you at all. You'd be amazed how many newer pilots are intimidated by NDB approaches and have this fear of the unknown. On an NDB, you don't need to be on the final course to the n'th degree or you're going to die, there is some reasonable leeway there in how those IAPs are TERPs, or put together. It's not mind blowing and doesn't require any public math in the cockpit; it's simply interperting what your instruments are telling you. Truthfully, they're one of the easiest IAPs to fly. Courses-TO, bearings-FROM. Head drops to your course inbound, tail rises to your desired bearing outbound.

 

[Tommay85]

One would think that guys here having to fly an NDB approach, are being asked to perform celestial navigation with a sextant or something.....sheesh

I think that could be fun play around with when the going gets boring.

 

[JDean3204]

Also I enjoy doing NDB approaches and NDB holds. It is a bummer that the NDB approach into TTD is almost impossible to execute as it conflicts with PDX traffic. Doing NDB holds with a good amount of wind is a great challenge, one that I practice on the simulator a bunch so if the time comes when ATC instructs me to do so, I will not look like an idiot flying around aimlessly.

 

[ppragman]

Again, a legit excuse, but one which has nothing to do with the main argument. OF COURSE if the particular NDB approach navaid is bad, then don't use it. But that doesn't mean that every NDB is a completely inaccurate POS. NDB approaches are a great skill builder to have and are a great SA as well as instrument pilot skills honing tool. Why so many people want to mindlessly follow some magenta line all the time, something that takes nearly zero skill, is perplexing. No one wants a challenge, or use of some brain power to think, or a sense of accomplishment anymore, when there is a legitimate chance to be able to do it.

One would think that guys here having to fly an NDB approach, are being asked to perform celestial navigation with a sextant or something.....sheesh

As someone who learned on NDBs and even flew NDB airways, meh. I don't really see them as being a "great" skill builder. With an RMI, they're not really different than a VOR approach, and with almost every airplane I've flown beyond 172s and 207s (if ADF was even installed) there's been an RMI. Even without the RMI, they're honestly not a super awesome training aid because they don't really teach something that correlates to what most instrument flying is. The vast majority of instrument flying is "proceed to Fix A, then direct/along the airway to Fix B, begin Approach 1, which from this point is a straight-in." Even in Alaska, where the availability of approaches isn't exactly good, there are a plethora of new GPS approaches. Outside of radar contact, I may have to do a procedure turn, or a DME arc to join (these are fairly common) some other Non-Precision Approach, but realistically, none of that is really similar to shooting an NDB approach - which is basically just a VOR approach with a really crappy needle. The one thing they do teach is a bit of SA in that the "needle always points at the station," and "the head of the needle always falls, the tail always rises," but beyond that, I don't really think they're an "instrument pilot skills honing tool." Sure, your scan has to be fairly rapid to fly a super tight NDB approach to mins in a snow storm at night partial panel, but you're scan has to be sharp to fly a good approach in any weather. I don't think that shooting NDB approaches really makes you that much better of a pilot. I don't think they're any tougher to fly than a VOR approach.

While I think they're better than VORs for en route, I don't particularly see any reason why I wouldn't want to fly the overlay if I could. Something about using "all available resources."

 

[Tommay85]

You got this part right. And that's not a slam on you at all. You'd be amazed how many newer pilots are intimidated by NDB approaches and have this fear of the unknown. On an NDB, you don't need to be on the final course to the n'th degree or you're going to die, there is some reasonable leeway there in how those IAPs are TERPs, or put together. It's not mind blowing and doesn't require any public math in the cockpit; it's simply interperting what your instruments are telling you. Truthfully, they're one of the easiest IAPs to fly. Courses-TO, bearings-FROM. Head drops to your course inbound, tail rises to your desired bearing outbound.

I think the fear is more of unsats on checkrides. Not actually using them out in the field. I unsat my instrument intermediate stage check twice because the check airman was an idiot. I know I know, defense mechanisms right?

I'm a rockstar at NDBs these days, but my heart rate still goes up when doing them on checkrides because of those unsats 6 years ago. Too subjective to grade, especially if the checkairman goes solely on what he sees outside and doesn't look over to what I'm seeing on the instrument.

 

[Tommay85]

Also I enjoy doing NDB approaches and NDB holds. It is a bummer that the NDB approach into TTD is almost impossible to execute as it conflicts with PDX traffic. Doing NDB holds with a good amount of wind is a great challenge, one that I practice on the simulator a bunch so if the time comes when ATC instructs me to do so, I will not look like an idiot flying around aimlessly.

ATC doesn't really care, and I doubt they can even tell what you're doing. You're doing aimless random circles in their eyes anyways.

 

[MikeD]

I don't think that shooting NDB approaches really makes you that much better of a pilot. I don't think they're any tougher to fly than a VOR approach.

Then why are you so keen to avoid them, if they're so easy? And Yes, they teach something related to instrument flying: scan, crosscheck, correlation and thinking; and they do build those basic instrument skills, as well as hone them. Especially for pilots who haven't flown alot of them to where they're second nature. Not everyone has that exposure that you did with NDB. So yes, they do teach things very related to instrument basics.

While I think they're better than VORs for en route, I don't particularly see any reason why I wouldn't want to fly the overlay if I could. Something about using "all available resources."

You mean, "I don't particularly see any reason why I shouldn't do things the laziest way if I could". How about fly the NDB primary, with the GPS as the backup? Or is that too much work now that you've left the real flying behind you in your current employment?

Insofar as using all available resources, just because you don't at a particular time doesn't mean that you're now unsafe or something. I flew one of the most technologically advanced planes in the world, and I often did non-precision IAPs in any number of places. Why? To keep the skills there. Because not everwhere had the ability for me to do a coupled ILS, some places only had a non-precision.

 

[z987k]

Also I enjoy doing NDB approaches and NDB holds. It is a bummer that the NDB approach into TTD is almost impossible to execute as it conflicts with PDX traffic. Doing NDB holds with a good amount of wind is a great challenge, one that I practice on the simulator a bunch so if the time comes when ATC instructs me to do so, I will not look like an idiot flying around aimlessly.

Take a trip to LGD with a /A or /U airplane and trail the AMF airplane going in. You'll get a NDB hold. First time I heard that I was like... um what?
Seattle center bug smasher 123 level 10k. Smasher 123, number 2 for the approach, hold at LGD on the xxx bearing.... uh what?
Or go to SUN in a /A airplane on a crap wx day. I promise a NDB hold there to.

I guess if I really wanted to do an NDB approach, I could put the HSI in RMI mode and put the NDB into the gps.

 

[MikeD]

Also I enjoy doing NDB approaches and NDB holds. It is a bummer that the NDB approach into TTD is almost impossible to execute as it conflicts with PDX traffic. Doing NDB holds with a good amount of wind is a great challenge, one that I practice on the simulator a bunch so if the time comes when ATC instructs me to do so, I will not look like an idiot flying around aimlessly.

Yes, NDBs are somewhat disappearing and yes, they're difficult to find and execute sometimes due to traffic; but I agree with all of the above. A good learning and honing tool. Alot more fun than just sitting on autopilot and watching the plane follow what you programmed into a box.

 

[MikeD]

I think the fear is more of unsats on checkrides. Not actually using them out in the field. I unsat my instrument intermediate stage check twice because the check airman was an idiot. I know I know, defense mechanisms right?

I'm a rockstar at NDBs these days, but my heart rate still goes up when doing them on checkrides because of those unsats 6 years ago. Too subjective to grade, especially if the checkairman goes solely on what he sees outside and doesn't look over to what I'm seeing on the instrument.

Of course it's a defense mechanism, but you also realize that too. Don't let one nitwit checkpilot ruin your confidence. You know what you're capable of.

 

[z987k]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the FAA have a date that they want to decommission most of the NDBs by? I think there's even a day set for VORs, and from what I understand the ILS may soon become a thing of the past with the new gps approach that is better than LPV.

 

[Tommay85]

Of course it's a defense mechanism, but you also realize that too. Don't let one nitwit checkpilot ruin your confidence. You know what you're capable of.

It's not really a confidence issue now, but I'm more paranoid about NDB approaches/holds than the others.

 

[MikeD]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the FAA have a date that they want to decommission most of the NDBs by?

Yes, it was the early 1990s.

It's one of those "Ill believe it when it happens" kind of things, anymore.

But they are slowly disappearing. In the greater PHX area, for example, there used to be 4 separate NDB IAPs: KSDL, KDVT, KFFZ and KCHD. Now the only remaining one is at CHD.

 

[MikeD]

It's not really a confidence issue now, but I'm more paranoid about NDB approaches/holds than the others.

When it sounds like you have no need to be paranoid. Sounds like you know that you do them fine, and did them fine. The type of Navaid wasn't the problem, the checkpilot seemingly was.

 

[Tommay85]

When it sounds like you have no need to be paranoid. Sounds like you know that you do them fine, and did them fine. The type of Navaid wasn't the problem, the checkpilot seemingly was.

Yeah, it was an unpleasant and expensive process that I associated with that kind of approach for awhile. I'm just glad it didn't manifest into test anxiety in general. That check pilot got canned eventually. He had a reputation for many bad and odd things and it caught up with him.