ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Might be a waste of time looking if you're IMC. Just saying.
Provided you're in a position to break out of course, plus you might see lights through the mist...but yeah, not all that good of an option if you're solid
GPS Approach
- Thread starter juxtapilot
- Start date
Provided you're in a position to break out of course, plus you might see lights through the mist...but yeah, not all that good of an option if you're solid
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Who knows... maybe it is fog. You can see down vertically to the approach lights, but as soon as you go into it (it's hard to see where it starts at night), you loose the runway. I've had this scenario happen.
It could also be a balked landing. You are not on the runway, and something happens to block the landing- an aircraft taxiing past the hold short line, the old fire truck wandering onto the runway. This is not common, but common enough that it is trained in the simulator. The common sim scenario is one like this- a balked landing followed by an immediate engine failure in an area where there is probably an ODP of some sort, or a single engine departure procedure in the take off data. The object is to get you thinking about the possibility of something like this happening if you are going into an airport like this prior to it happening. You don't want to start thinking about what to do while it is happening.
sundog
Well-Known Member
only if both engines are running.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
right? again his scenario is so vague that i just made that point. if SE you are in a world of hurt, in a PA44 i might just stay low and on course and hope to find the runway again (assuming prior to rwy threshold)
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
This is every single day in Fairbanks in the winter, its clear and 1million at just 300' up, but below that it's solid IMC.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
Be ready for everything. A herd of dogs ran onto the runway, while at the same time your left engine failed.
...
This is just a pretendland scenario... I'm guess all I'm looking for is what do you do when something's different from the norm... We all know what we would do if we were configured on this approach and following it normally. There's always the "what if" though.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
About as much of a pretend land scenario as a V1 cut. Balked landings followed by engine failures while not common, are not unheard of.
The scenario given- a missed approach below DA/MDA is not that uncommon. I've had it happen. Granted, in those cases, both engines worked. But I've seen and trained for approaches where the time to think about what to do in this scenario is NOT while it is happening as the outcome will probably be deadly- especially if you have a load of people in the back depending on you to do the right thing. But hey... what are the odds of two engines failing at the same time. What's the point of taking some glider training in case you're faced with such a ridiculous scenario.
Also, some of these missed approach below DA/MDA scenarios could be deadly for SE airplanes, especially in the west/southwest where you are dealing with high DAs and terrain. I have some of these canned scenarios that I throw at pilots during instrument training and IPCs. Again, the time to think about it is not while it is happening.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
F! the dogs, my prop (since you said my other failed) will chew them up. if you want my honest answer.
I am all for vague scenarios, but this is to vague. i teach my students to did into it to see exactly what we are talking about.
sorry Jake
juxtapilot
Snowflake
haha, just trying to add some details for you!
Really this would be a vague situation. Nothing matters except for three things:
1) You are below MDA.
2) You need to go around.
3) There is a mountain or some towers which you *might* crash into if you follow the missed approach, because the designers of the approach calculate your terrain clearance, with a missed approach starting at the MAP and not below the MDA.
In this case, I'd be climbing and turning towards the airport, probably have my GPS page set up so I could see where the airport is and just climb above it until at the MDA, THEN follow the Missed approach procedure.
I don't follow...
Blip16
Well-Known Member
late at night, cant type.
"i teach my students to DIG into the situation to find out exactly what we are talking about"
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
First, this scenario can happen to SE airplanes as well as multi engine (missed approach below DA/MDA). In this scenario, the airplane may not be in a position to meet the climb gradiant necessary for the missed since they are starting at a lower altitude. Like I've written, I've had several missed approaches occure below DA/MDA- normally because we loose the runway. Around where I live, you had really better know what to do before it happens.
Second, this might be true if the engine fails prior to the missed, or if you even notice it failed. Not if it fails during the missed.
Third- have you seen what happens to a spinning prop when it hits an animal? I know it happened to an EMB-120 in Ashville, and parts of the prop went through the airplane. Lucky, no one was hurt.
Again, I've been around long enough to see emergency situations that were more outlandish- like the odds of a DC-10 loosing all hydraulics. The thing with this given scenario is that if it does happen you will NOT have any time to think about what to do if you have not already formulated a plan.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
but here is my point, you CAN NOT possibly think of every single possible scenario before the flight, it is impossible. all you can do is learn to diagnose the problem, maybe have 1 or 2 ways out if XXXXXX were to happen, but again you CAN NOT have a plan for every single possible scenario. there is only so much preflight planning one can accomplish. and personally if i was going into an airport such as the one listed, i would have a few of said contingency plans, but i would more likely than not make a decision point of when i am just going to continue it in vs. go missed, becuase at some point you just can not safely continue missed and are better off trying to find the ground
that is why i am saying this is too vague
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I think what we're failing to realize is that in a lot of ways vague is good. If you have a general idea of what you're going to do if something outside of the ordinary happens, then you'll be able to react. If you plan accordingly you'll have a chance. You do need to realize that every contingency is not possible to plan for, so you have to be flexible and able to adapt to rapidly changing situations if they present themselves. The best way to do this is understanding which scenarios represent the most likely possibilities (e.g. don't break out, have to go missed) and which are the most dangerous (have to go missed below MDA, or lose an engine below MDA, or if single engine, outside of gliding distance). Then your contingencies must be based on the ability to survive the most dangerous possible situations. A missed below MDA is a missed, whether its for dogs on the runway or for losing sight of the airport. An engine failure below MDA facilitating a missed is just that, nothing more, don't make it more complicated by adding the reasons for a missed, just decide whether or not to go missed.
Here are roughly the things you should be thinking about in this scenario
Missed Below MDA on a non-precision approach in somewhat mountainous terrain:
A) Engine failure
I) Damn.
OPTIONS:
a) Attempt missed approach if aircraft performance allows
b) Forced landing on runway
B) Unable to maintain obstruction clearance
I) Double Damn!
OPTIONS:
a) Make a non precision approach into a precision approach and don't go missed
i) Risk CFIT
ii) Good chance of an off airport landing / CFIT if anything else happens
b) Try to follow the GPS to safety if its equipped with terrain awareness
i) Risk CFIT
ii) Good chance of an off airport landing / CFIT if anything else happens
c) Continue to the airport while climbing then circle up over the field.
i) Risk CFIT
ii) Good chance of an off airport landing / CFIT if anything else happens
The risks for all three approaches are roughly the same, the problem is detirmining which presents the greatest risk under the scenario of a specfic airport. Here's an example.
At Dutch Harbor, (PADU) the missed approach on the NDB/DME-C approach puts you farther out on the approach than visibility mins of the approach, you can be legal to fly the approach and still not see the airport when you hit mins every time. Do you continue in? Most do, because they're in good VFR, and often times they get in close enough and the realize that a squawl has come through and sent dutch to zero zero. Or worse, you can see the lead ins, get all the way around the corner and get hit with a squall inside the volcanic caldera. The last thing you'd want to do would be to execute the published missed at that point because you'd hit mt. ballyhoo, instead you'd want to fly around the inside of the caldera or do a right climbing 180 and head back out over open ocean. But the turn better be sharp because you're in a position where a standard rate turn may not do it for you.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
right it gets you to think, but you can't plan for everything. some pre-planning on the ground is a requirement, but just the initial question was too vague to even decide on that.
