Got myself in trouble and need advice

OctoberCharlie

Active Member
Hi everybody,

I'm currently active duty military and prior medium size aircraft instructor. Everything was going great for me, never failed a flight, no flight violations or any pink sheets of any kind in my record, last speeding ticket even was 5 years ago. After my first operational tour I got orders to train new jet students (I didn't ask for or want these orders but the military is the military so I went determined to do great things). I was struggling pretty badly, I know I'm a good pilot but everything in that little jet just seemed so backwards compared to what I had spent the last 6 years of my career doing. After about 3 months there I had an instrument flight in the back under the hood. The flight was not going stellar and on the final approach we were doing a PAR where I was supposed to turn off all my displays and fly partial panel. While doing this I got some severe spatial disorientation and the instructor had to take the controls to get us back on course. Not able to overcome the vertigo and below 1000 feet I didn't feel safe (all self perceived since the instructor in the front had a full view of everything) and ended up turning my displays back on. Jump ahead to the debrief I was incredibly embarrassed that I had resorted to turning my screens on and basically cheating which got the best of me and I didn't say anything about turning them back on (which I know was stupid and not like me at all). They knew and I got kicked out of the command and am now on non flying orders. I'm not barred from flying and really nothing went into my record other than "member did not make it through training."

This has been the worst part of my military career and I don't blame anyone but myself. I learned a very valuable lesson in one of the hardest ways, my integrity has always in the past been rock solid and I allowed it to falter and have seen first hand what that brings.

My question now is have I totally ruined my aviation career and shot at the airlines or any good reputable pilot job when I do get out of the military? Even though there's no record of what happened (PRIA and all that) I know this is something that I'll have to explain to any future employers (can't really say I learned anything if I were to hide it). I'm planning on getting my CFI and doing some civilian instructing on the side, and am gonna do everything I can to get flying orders again (I've seen way bigger miracles than myself happen there). By the time I'm looking for jobs I'll have put some years behind this and truly be able to say I've learned a lot and grew in ways I never would have thought necessary before.

Any constructive advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
So long as you did not get FEBd/ FENABd and lose your wings or flight status, you’re fine. What would hurt you is losing your wings, which by what you describe, you didn’t do. Being in a non-flying assignment for a final assignment will be a small issue as it comes to separating while still current. But it’s nothing that will hurt you career wise. I would take any opportunity to get into a flying assignment prior to separating, and practice on things you may be weak on from not having done. Bone up on things you know you might be weak on from disuse.

I’ve known guys who have done or dealt with far worse, and are flying for major airlines with no problem.

what background/community did you come from, before being sent back to training command?
 
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You're going to be fine. I've seen guys that were actually FNAEB'd (but kept their wings) get on EASILY to successful civilian flying with quality employers. If anything, it's a sign to CNATRA to get their heads out of their butts and stop sending P-3 guys to be instructors in T-45s. I'm a successful jet instructor, but I would be horribly lost if I had to go shoot a PAR partial panel in a P-3. Willing to bet you fit all too well into the wing commander's narrative if he feels the same way. Good luck. The bright side is that you don't have to live in Meridian or Kingsville anymore.
 
I would assume this is the military equivalent of going to the Big Brown Desk(R) and leaving with consequences, right?

- dumb 200%-for-overtime civilian
Field Naval Aviator Evaluation Board (fee-nab). Possible outcomes are (1) nothing, (2) you're done flying and keep your wings, or (3) you're done flying and they take your wings (more akin to certificate action by the FAA).

-dumb 200%-for-overtime-wannabe
 
Hey guys thanks for all the responses! It’s good to hear that I haven’t totally sunk my career. Yea nothing ever went to FNAEB so I still have my wings, the fitrep wasn’t great but it wasn’t adverse at least. Being a P-3 guy getting sent to at-45s was a huge culture shock and I just wish things didn’t end the way they did. I’m gonna stop at nothing to get another flying assignment before my time is up and I’m currently working on keeping myself current in the civilian world (but holy crap it’s expensive on this side).

You guys are awesome!
 
What’s it called when youre holding on too tight, so scared, and not knowing what happened, and go to the big desk and slide your wings across?
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My question now is have I totally ruined my aviation career and shot at the airlines or any good reputable pilot job when I do get out of the military? Even though there's no record of what happened (PRIA and all that) I know this is something that I'll have to explain to any future employers (can't really say I learned anything if I were to hide it). I'm planning on getting my CFI and doing some civilian instructing on the side, and am gonna do everything I can to get flying orders again (I've seen way bigger miracles than myself happen there). By the time I'm looking for jobs I'll have put some years behind this and truly be able to say I've learned a lot and grew in ways I never would have thought necessary before.
What's your current situation? Are you an O3 or O4? Do you already have your Commercial, ATP-R, or ATP?

Your failure to complete training isn't a big deal. You aren't going to lose your wings and the only thing an airline HR needs to know if your career path is discussed is that you "requested transfer and took a desk job". Don't give them more than that. They are used to seeing military pilots that have no interest in staying in twenty years.

If you can't make retirement, you need to look at escape options that keep you flying.

Is there a chance you can transition to P-8's? What other flying options are out there?

Career-wise, I think you might be hurting yourself if your strategy is to hang on for 5+ years in a non-flying gig with no chance of making twenty years and hope to CFI your way back into currency and into a 121 seat.

The timing of the P-3 demise is bad as you could have flown until retirement in the Reserves. Regardless, a non-flying Reserve gig might be worth the eventual payoff.
 
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Im an O3 and unfortunately I have to finish out the next 2 and a half years at this desk job but if I can manage a P-8 gig I’ll definitely take it. I did the military competency for my commercial ASEL and AMEL and my CFII and MEI, I’m just pursuing my SEI now. As for ATP I’m still working how best to go about getting that, my worry is going into it without enough proficiency.
 
Im an O3 and unfortunately I have to finish out the next 2 and a half years at this desk job but if I can manage a P-8 gig I’ll definitely take it. I did the military competency for my commercial ASEL and AMEL and my CFII and MEI, I’m just pursuing my SEI now. As for ATP I’m still working how best to go about getting that, my worry is going into it without enough proficiency.

The Navy is no longer a career, it's a job.

That said, you picked the right moment in your career to stumble. You're a rock star with Navy wings. You need to spend the next two years networking and working towards your ATP-R.

At all costs, keep flying. Don't let a month go by that you don't fly something. Identify the aircraft that you're going to do your ATP check-ride in. Find a sympathetic new rich friend with a twin.

Keep your chin up, Lieutenant. You are way ahead of the curve as far as an airline career.

Practice your interview speech. It didn't look like you were on the path towards a command so you chose a different path. Don't equate anything in the military with the civilian world.

Navy pilot, x hours, experienced in large, long-range, multi-engined turboprop aircraft. Nice guy, nice resume, nice references. That's how you will be seen.

Any chance of wrapping up at a RAG?
 
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Wait, so now we’re telling people to lie on applications/interviews about training failures?

I don't equate military training and evaluation with those in the civilian world.

If civil employers understood the dynamics of military aviation I'd feel better about full disclosure.

Try to find a parallel for this career trajectory in the civilian world. Imagine that you are a seasoned 121 first officer and you've proven you have the skill, experience, and demeanor to upgrade. Instead of upgrading your employer doesn't appreciate your untested managerial skills and makes you an instructor pilot in a new airframe with dramatically different flight characteristics and mission.

So yeah, if the 214 doesn't describe a training failure, I wouldn't disclose it.
 
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I believe one of the questions on the Delta addendum is “have you ever been removed from flight status?” So you were in a flight position then moved to a non flight position? If so, you’d have to answer yes to that question.

Edit: here’s the exact question

“Have you ever been the subject of an evaluation board or been removed from flight status, downgraded, or failed any portion of flight training either civilian or military?“
 
I believe one of the questions on the Delta addendum is “have you ever been removed from flight status?” So you were in a flight position then moved to a non flight position? If so, you’d have to answer yes to that question.

Edit: here’s the exact question

“Have you ever been the subject of an evaluation board or been removed from flight status, downgraded, or failed any portion of flight training either civilian or military?“

I understand, English is my native tongue. If I left the Navy with my wings attached Delta would get a DD-214 and my logbooks and I wouldn't disclose anything else.

That's me, I don't think there is some sky god dispensing justice on this little insignificant planet.

If the FAA has a record of it, it's a bust; otherwise, if it doesn't say it on your DD214, it's none of their business.
 
I understand, English is my native tongue. If I left the Navy with my wings attached Delta would get a DD-214 and my logbooks and I wouldn't disclose anything else.

That's me, I don't think there is some sky god dispensing justice on this little insignificant planet.

If the FAA has a record of it, it's a bust; otherwise, if it doesn't say it on your DD214, it's none of their business.
They don’t really care about busts. They just want you to be honest.
 
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