GoJet/TSA Single-Carrier Petition

[aloft]

Deadhead Pay: 50% --
CDO rules suck.
Airport Reserve Rules.
New Aircraft Type Section
No Strike
Jets for Jobs

To name a few.

I said specifics.

Isn't 50% deadhead pay common? What sucks about their CDO & AR rules, the New Aircraft Type section compared to industry norms?

As for the No Strike/No Lockout section, don't quote me, but I'd be surprised if this was enforceable; seems the provisions of the RLA would trump this.

As for the Jets For Jobs section, on first glance, spelling out a limit on the ratio seems a good idea to me. Again, the objective of any business is growth.

For reference, I've attached the GoJet contract.

 

[meritflyer]

Whether it's mainline or regional pilots, they all hate GoJet pilots.

Is that the kind of career suicide you want?

 

[mikecweb]

G7 is one of only two airlines hiring right now (not counting Lakes)

That should probably tell you something.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

A question for the TSA guys... has it happened yet?

It... have they offered any soon-to-be-furloughed TSA guys interviews at GoJet?

 

[Kristie]

it doesn't sound like it from what the guys said when they got their pink slips

 

[aloft]

Whether it's mainline or regional pilots, they all hate GoJet pilots.

Is that the kind of career suicide you want?

Exactly the kind of misinformation I'm talking about. Doug has stated before that guys at the mainline carriers could care less about infighting at the regionals, and as I've shown, there isn't even consensus at TSA anymore.

More to the point, the issues everyone seems to have with GoJet are management's doing, not the pilots'--yet another reason to discuss this stuff. Sure, some of the early GoJet pilots may have pissed the TSA guys off by jumping ship, but the majority have never worked for TSA, never done a thing to them, and more importantly to the profession, worked to get a union on property and get a union-negotiated contract that wasn't bottom-feeding. For that, the GoJet pilots should have your respect, not your scorn. You can loathe their management all you want, but even that is somewhat pointless.

 

[kellwolf]

Not really. As the doc Matt posted spelled out, the two situations bear little resemblance.

Seems to me there is a MAJOR similarity: Freedom was created to get around a scope clause so MAG could fly larger aircraft. Curiously, even the document Matt posted says that was the main reason GoJet was created. So, what was the original deal offered at GoJets? Seeing as they were created in late 2004, started service 10/05 but didn't get Teamster representation until 2/06, I don't see how the current Teamster contract could have been in place during the start up time, which is what most people have an issue with. I've seen all the documents tossed out about the current pay rates and the Teamsters, etc, etc. Just a quick run down of similar carriers on APC, and they're 5 year CA pay isn't that stellar. They're second from the bottom (thanks to Mesa), but you have to keep in mind that both Comair and Mesaba's contract were achieved with the help of bankruptcies. Not exactly fair comparisons. Pinnacle pays less on the -200 side by about $4/hr, and that contract was signed back in 1999.

Sorry, Matt. My free thinking says there's really no reason the two need to be separate unless it's a labor issue thing. We've said hundreds of times that pay rates aren't everything, and I haven't read Go Jet's contract vs TSA's contract. If there's similar work rules in there, then you might have a case. If Go Jet's work rules are less than what TSA has......well, there ya go.

 

[kellwolf]

Sure, some of the early GoJet pilots may have pissed the TSA guys off by jumping ship, but the majority have never worked for TSA, never done a thing to them, and more importantly to the profession, worked to get a union on property and get a union-negotiated contract that wasn't bottom-feeding. For that, the GoJet pilots should have your respect, not your scorn. You can loathe their management all you want, but even that is somewhat pointless.

I've been trying to find out when the Teamsters inked a new deal with Trans States Holdings. The only thing I was able to find were press releases stating that Go Jets voted them in, nothing about a new contract. And if so....what were the previous terms? That could be a HUGE deal when talking about people jumping ship to Go Jets. Was over a year from the time Go Jets started hiring to when the Teamsters were even voted in. If the pay/work rules were shotty for that time period, I'm afraid that swiss cheeses a lot of your argument.

Edit: Nevermind. Saw you posted the Go Jets contract, and I'm reading it now. Doesn't look like they did much "negotiating," though. It was signed the day Teamsters were selected as the union. Instead of negotiating a new deal, looks like they just signed on for what as already there.

 

[Gonzo]

I said specifics.

Isn't 50% deadhead pay common? No it is not common, most 75% and a few 100%.

What sucks about their CDO & AR rules, "A CDO trip will not be scheduled for more than six (6) total legs, including deadheads." WTF a CDO should never be more then 2 legs.
"CDO trips will be confined to separate CDO bid lines to the extent
practicable. A Pilot will be scheduled for no more than four (4) day – three
(3) night consecutive CDO’s." CDO's are hard on the body and pilots should be given at least one day between them.
It also looks like a pilot that was on a CDO can get junior maned or extended if needed.
10 hours of AR sucks.
the New Aircraft Type section compared to industry norms? 30 days to work out new rates is not industry norms. "The arbitrator will have no jurisdiction to make the rates of pay specified in his award retroactive."

As for the No Strike/No Lockout section, don't quote me, but I'd be surprised if this was enforceable; seems the provisions of the RLA would trump this. It is enforceable my stupid MEC put in my companys CBA.

As for the Jets For Jobs section, on first glance, spelling out a limit on the ratio seems a good idea to me. Again, the objective of any business is growth. The pilots have no say in the J4J. Great a new FO spots.

Now that I have your homework about the CBA. Will you please pass on your info about way Gojet was started.

 

[aloft]

Seems to me there is a MAJOR similarity: Freedom was created to get around a scope clause so MAG could fly larger aircraft. Curiously, even the document Matt posted says that was the main reason GoJet was created.

Whose scope clause? The pilots' contract? Or a mainline partner's? I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that Freedom was merely an attempt at union busting by JO.

Just a quick run down of similar carriers on APC, and they're 5 year CA pay isn't that stellar. They're second from the bottom (thanks to Mesa), but you have to keep in mind that both Comair and Mesaba's contract were achieved with the help of bankruptcies. Not exactly fair comparisons. Pinnacle pays less on the -200 side by about $4/hr, and that contract was signed back in 1999.

That's fair, but keep in mind that they're a small-potatoes player with only 15 aircraft.

Sorry, Matt. My free thinking says there's really no reason the two need to be separate unless it's a labor issue thing.

Agreed. And HK tried to go that route, giving the TSA pilots first crack at the flying. As I've posted, Foxcow made it apparent to me that those talks melted down because of the TSA MEC chair's personality clash with HK, and the TSA pilots' failure to recall him before he sank the deal.

The TSA pilots have plenty to be pissed about regarding the GoJet situation, but the GoJet pilot group is not one of them. They should be pissed at HK, they should be pissed at APA for their restrictive scope, but mostly, they should be pissed at their former MEC chair for his inept handling of the 70-seat rate negotiations.

 

[aloft]

Now that I have your homework about the CBA. Will you please pass on your info about way Gojet was started.

See the doc FlyChicaga posted at the top of this thread. It spells it out pretty clearly.

 

[aloft]

Originally Posted by aloft
I said specifics.

Isn't 50% deadhead pay common? No it is not common, most 75% and a few 100%. Hmm...none that I'm familiar with.

What sucks about their CDO & AR rules, "A CDO trip will not be scheduled for more than six (6) total legs, including deadheads." WTF a CDO should never be more then 2 legs.
"CDO trips will be confined to separate CDO bid lines to the extent
practicable. A Pilot will be scheduled for no more than four (4) day – three
(3) night consecutive CDO’s." CDO's are hard on the body and pilots should be given at least one day between them.
It also looks like a pilot that was on a CDO can get junior maned or extended if needed. All your opinion, of course; what are the CDO provisions at other companies?
10 hours of AR sucks. Agreed, but again, that's opinion. What are the AR terms at other companies?
the New Aircraft Type section compared to industry norms? 30 days to work out new rates is not industry norms. "The arbitrator will have no jurisdiction to make the rates of pay specified in his award retroactive."

As for the No Strike/No Lockout section, don't quote me, but I'd be surprised if this was enforceable; seems the provisions of the RLA would trump this. It is enforceable my stupid MEC put in my companys CBA. Seems to me that amounts to industry precedent then, but let me get this straight: one of the reasons you hate GoJet is also part of YOUR contract?? By that logic, everybody should hate your pilot group too. (Where did you say you worked again?) Starting to see the lunacy in all the hate-mongering yet?

As for the Jets For Jobs section, on first glance, spelling out a limit on the ratio seems a good idea to me. Again, the objective of any business is growth. The pilots have no say in the J4J. Great a new FO spots. Show me a carrier where the pilots DO have a say in any J4J arrangement.

 

[aloft]

Edit: Nevermind. Saw you posted the Go Jets contract, and I'm reading it now. Doesn't look like they did much "negotiating," though. It was signed the day Teamsters were selected as the union. Instead of negotiating a new deal, looks like they just signed on for what as already there.

Which undermines the anti-GoJet argument even more, if true.

 

[Berkut]

Question from a non-121 pilot: Will GoJet always be "bad" because of how they started? Is there any situation where people would consider them redeemed, and okay to work for?

 

[Gonzo]

See the doc FlyChicaga posted at the top of this thread. It spells it out pretty clearly.

It does not spell anything out. It looks like we all still have no clue what happen at the negotiation meetings, and have no facts way they where started.

 

[L-16B]

Yeah, right down there bottom-feeding alongside Comair. :whatever: And really, how many pilots only make guarantee?

As to work rules, you'll need to be more specific.

From APC (with a few other companies tossed in for comparison):

5th yr CRJ 700 CA pay:
GoJet: $66 (goes up to $67 this year, and $71 over the next 4 yrs)
Mesa: $64
Comair: $66
SkyWest: $69 (CR7/CR9)
Eagle: -- no such thing as a 5th yr CR7 CA
Colgan: $60 (Q400 -- 78 seats)

Min Guarantee (lineholder/reserve):
GoJet: 74/74
Mesa: 76/76
Comair: 75/75
SkyWest: 75/75
Eagle: 72/75
Colgan: 75/75

Min Days Off (lineholder/reserve):
GoJet: 11/11
Mesa: 10.83/10.83

Per Diem:
GoJet: $1.50/hr (increases by $0.05 every 2nd yr)
Mesa: $1.28/hr
Comair: $1.55/hr
Eagle: $1.70/hr (increases by $0.05 each year)
Colgan: $1.35/hr

Like I said: not industry-leading, but not bottom-feeding either.

Not defending Colgan in anyway, but - q400 holds 74 seats not 78, and is a tp. apples and oranges (i do think that tp should be paid the same, though). Vote alpa in Aug. Our Per Diem is just downright horrible as well.

 

[JumpWake]

You, on the other hand, keep wanting to make the argument about ME, and one must assume that's because you can't adequately support your own position with facts.

If I remember correctly when this issue popped up a couple months ago, I chimed in gave my piece, told you exactly why GoJets is despised and then you resort to NAME CALLING. Childish. The facts have been presented here so many times it hurts to count them...you just need to open your eyes and maybe see it from 121 pilots perspective before preaching about something you know nothing about.

 

[aloft]

It does not spell anything out. It looks like we all still have no clue what happen at the negotiation meetings, and have no facts way they where started.

Re-read it, it states quite clearly that the purpose in creating GoJet was to take on flying that TSA could not do without violating its contract with AMR.

 

[aloft]

If I remember correctly when this issue popped up a couple months ago, I chimed in gave my piece, told you exactly why GoJets is despised and then you resort to NAME CALLING. Childish.

Please show me where I resorted to namecalling.

The facts have been presented here so many times it hurts to count them...

These "facts", as you call them, are in the process of being unraveled one by one.

...you just need to open your eyes and maybe see it from 121 pilots perspective before preaching about something you know nothing about.

Maybe you need to look at it from a neutral viewpoint to see how ridiculous the "121 pilot" perspective is. The unjustified hatred you advocate is also the basis for racism, sexism and homophobia. Perhaps it is YOU who needs to let it go.

 

[aloft]

Not defending Colgan in anyway, but - q400 holds 74 seats not 78, and is a tp. apples and oranges (i do think that tp should be paid the same, though). Vote alpa in Aug. Our Per Diem is just downright horrible as well.

Not to mention that you were just purchased for the same purpose everyone alleges GoJet was created for....

The Colgan Q400 rate was thrown in there to illustrate the bottom end of the range for 70+ seats. Passengers aren't charged any less for flying on a turboprop, why should pilots accept less? Some of the G7 hate is coming from guys who clearly need to get their own house in order before throwing rocks at others.