Going into hospital far riskier than flying-WHO
- Thread starter braunpilot
- Start date
Is this because doctors require 10+ years of training after high school, whereas pilots require 3+ months of training after high school?
pullup
Homewrecker
milleR
Well-Known Member
Having watched several friends go through medical school here in the states I will never understand the comparison between doctors and pilots. There are certainly issues in the American health care system, but from what I've seen, the issues are with nursing, not doctors.
Menn80
Well-Known Member
But at the same time how many people fly a different airplane and a different route to a different airport all in the same day? Just say that everyone who was flying somewhere was treated individually in every aspect of flying how many accidents would there be a day? How many deaths? Not every hospital visit is the same, nor the conditions of that visit. Apples and oranges is what this is compared to.
I had my appendix removed on 7/4 and then I came back on 7/18 with a nasty abscess. Still here with no discharge in sight.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
OUCH! I just recovered from an abscess and it was incredibly, incredibly painful. Where's it at?
Where the appendix was. They inserted a drain on tuesday. Things are looking up but I'm ready to sleep in my own bed soon and so sick of the tubes and needles.
pullup
Homewrecker
I hate hospitals with a passion, get well soon!
braunpilot
What day is it?
Sorry to hear about all of that.
I_Money
Moderator
This really does not surprise me - but when you say 1:10 pt are subject to an error, I am sure 1:10 flights is subject to an error too. Those aviation errors are probably minor, it could be something like leaving the gear down too long, putting flaps down too soon, missing a radio call, not putting a seatbelt sign on early enough during turbulence, etc. Your window for error on those is fairly large - it takes a pretty big little mistake to kill someone.
The main difference is the errors in medicine aren't always so forgiving - misreading an EKG they're dead, missing a subtle hint on a pt before giving meds they're dead, 80 y/o you forget to put the bed alarm on, tries to get out of bed, falls has a broken hip - dead. What makes it more difficult we are told we have to take everyone, what we are going to be paid, and then told to make it work and do so safely.
Imagine if airlines were told that on 80% of passengers you would loose money -
I would love to hear you elaborate more on this -
The main difference is the errors in medicine aren't always so forgiving - misreading an EKG they're dead, missing a subtle hint on a pt before giving meds they're dead, 80 y/o you forget to put the bed alarm on, tries to get out of bed, falls has a broken hip - dead. What makes it more difficult we are told we have to take everyone, what we are going to be paid, and then told to make it work and do so safely.
Imagine if airlines were told that on 80% of passengers you would loose money -
I would love to hear you elaborate more on this -
milleR
Well-Known Member
I'm not exempting doctors from errors, misdiagnosis, or other general screwups. However, the volume of care falls on the nurses shoulders, giving them far more opportunities to make a mistake. Or maybe I'm completely off base here, I've been accused of talking out my ass before
I would think it's pretty close to that.
Mateo303
Well-Known Member
As someone who has worked in healthcare for almost 10 years now I cant tell you how much I disagree with this.
Medicine largely lacks the intense culture of safety present in aviation. There have been many pushes driven primarily by nursing professional groups to implement many concepts from aviation adapted to medicine to improve patient safety. One example of this is pre-surgical checklists to ensure you have the correct patient, correct procedure, correct site, and correct staff / equipment etc. Our surgeons in many cases flat out refuse to go through the checklists. Recently we even had one get so angry when the nurse refused to start the case until the checklist was complete that he threw a tray of instruments across the room and stormed out in anger.
The primary problem as I have seen it is that many physicians have an intense sense of antiauthority and entitlement. The attitudes are very similar to the old days of aviation where pilots saw themselves as infallible bad a$$es who did everything perfect. The rules did not apply to them because they believed themselves to be professionals that don’t screw up. Aviation addressed this and now hammers it into all of our heads that while confidence is important, it also can kill. There is an important line not to cross and you need to constantly examine your decisions and question yourself.
It does not surprise me that your friend seems to have taken the attitude that nursing is the "problem". In aviation we are taught that responsibility flows up the chain of command to the PIC who is ultimately responsible for everything that happens on a flight. In medicine when something goes wrong it is largely a game of pointing fingers. For example, if a chart order is not properly followed there is rarely a discussion or self analysis on the part of the physician as to their personal responsibility. Was the order confusing? Illegible? Unsafe? Never have I seen a physician take personal responsibility in the regard. More or less I see yelling and finger pointing.
One other example and I will get off my soap box. The illegibility of physician handwriting is oddly embraced as a part of the medical culture. I have actually seen med schools that hand out a joke award to the student with the worst handwriting at graduation. There is little sense that this actually kills people (and many documented cases at that). As I transitioned into aviation I realized this was really the equivalent of pilots with terrible radio skills unable to effectively communicate. Pilots are extremely critical when they hear a pilot who cannot communicate while in medicine it is some sort of joke.
To back what I am communicating here consider that physicians are notoriously bad and dangerous pilots. It is common to hear CFI's complain about physicians unable to take criticism and having a sense that the rules do not apply to them. There are many accidents with physician pilots that have shown what these attitudes can lead to.
Certainly I am biased. I'm getting out of medicine because I am so disenchanted. While aviation has its problems we do safety right. Medicine has much to learn in the regard. The primary reason as I see it that medicine has not changed is that errors dont result in flaming holes in the ground. Also, the physician is not on board in the way that a pilot is. Aviation safety is as much about self preservation as it is protecting others. No such standard or concern exists in medicine.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
I hope it doesn't bankrupt you. Even with insurance, that sounds pretty expensive.
I_Money
Moderator
I'm not exempting doctors from errors, misdiagnosis, or other general screwups. However, the volume of care falls on the nurses shoulders, giving them far more opportunities to make a mistake. Or maybe I'm completely off base here, I've been accused of talking out my ass before
Nurses do provide the minute-to-minute care and are often the final line of defense to for the pt - we often pick up errors from above, or with providing the minute on minute care to the pt just having the closer set of eyes on them allows us to unearth or uncover things that is important to their care as well as being the one who notices changes. Nurses are probably leading the way in safety initiatives - nurses are the front line of infection control, such as hand washing for all healthcare workers, to parameters for isolation rooms. As mentioned above nurses implemented the pre-surgical time out which is now a jcaho requirement. Nurses are the ones implementing IT into the healthcare system with such advances as electronic physician order entry. Nurses are now common place within hospital leadership - many holding positions such as COO and CEO.
Med errors are the most common nursing error - we have implemented technology to help ensure a safer system and the numbers show it has. But to give you an idea in 2 hours, I need to asses 5 patients and hand out up to 100 different medication while keeping in mind allergies, the findings of my assessment, and any other problems that may arise (whether the dose seems too high, or we are giving multiple medicines that do the same thing and act the same way) - while I try to do this often the pts want to talk - tell me how they want to go home, or if we could get them stuffed bell peppers again today - in this time I am also meant to educate the pt on their meds, answering any questions they have. Now medicaid and medicare who are the vast majority of our revenue want to cut that time in half. That would be about 1.5 pills per minute -
I don't want to say nurses or doctors make more errors - working together we can really make less. In an open communication environment, where each others skills and job function are valued, working collaboratively we can serve our pts so much better - that should be both of our goals.
milleR
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I suppose my opinion is biased simply because I've witnessed nursing mistakes on several occasions, one of which resulted in the premature death of my father-in-law. However, it certainly isn't fair to lump everyone together so I apologize for the generalities I was making.
