Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Okay, so he made a mistake. Big deal.
Both aircraft remained well clear, no metal was bent or people hurt.
Glorified Bus Driver
- Thread starter seaav8tor
- Start date
Okay, so he made a mistake. Big deal.
Both aircraft remained well clear, no metal was bent or people hurt.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
I am not saying something should be done(the CFI is a friend of mine), but just because no metal was bent or people were not hurt does not mean there should never be consequences.
Scandinavian13
New Member
It was just a general snapshot and an abstraction, so relax a bit.
Tuitions for pilots were based on flight academies because FBOs statistics aren't very reliable. Yes, they have programs, but if it's not full time, you'll get too much variation. You can get it done in much less than academies if you're good, dedicated and actually sit down and get it done (your case and what I project to be my own).
$75,000 for med school was a google stab. I checked again with UVA and it looks more like in-state is well over $200,000 (everything included). For some reason, some other website was saying public, in-state tuition was around $20,000 per year, so I assumed $75,000-80,000.
Great. They live at the hospital. Pilots live at the airport. My point wasn't that their lives are easy. All of them have very difficult beginning jobs, and I'm not going to undercut that. My point was that for what we all put into some of the most expensive training for various jobs, pilots have a horrible starting salary compared to the rest. Everyone else with the demanding professions I listed gets a decent amount of pay from the start, pilots do not. That list deserves it, and pilots do too.
I'm a big believer in "no harm, no foul", and I agree that each situation should be be judged on its merits.
That said, mistakes do happen. I'm MUCH more for a no harm/no foul situation being used as a learning tool, rather than a punitive action tool. IMHO, you get far more mileage out of it that way.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
True but he landed without a landing clearance for that runway. While it all turned out good in the end, they do need to understand that there are consequences for doing something like that whether it's a Cessna at a GA airport, or someone cleared to land on 27L in ATL and landing on 28 instead. Do you think if they had done that in ATL and made an airliner go around that the tower would be all "No harm, no foul?"
(Edit)
I'm not advocating yanking the guy's certs, but maybe having a "Come to Jesus" talk might make them more vigilent in the future.
Every situation has it's unique circumstances. The ATL/airliner going around example would involve a direct potential safety issue......not the same as (for example) it happening at a slow GA field where there was no real conflict.
Precisely what I'm getting at. Not everything has to be a "throw the book at them", sometimes a good lesson is learned and the situation can be used for just that. Again, weight the merits of the particular case. That's all I mean.
Killtron2000
Well-Known Member
Are you seriously suggesting that pilots and doctors should have comparable salaries? Because you plunked down ukraine's deficit at a flight school and went through their course does not entitle you to a big salary when you're finished.
It takes 10 years of schooling to be a doctor. 4 year degree+4years of med school+2 years in a specialty. Plus you actually have be smart and have good grades.
It takes 10 months to become a commercial pilot. And as long as you don't have DUIs you're good to go.
The only thing you're pointing out is pilot certificates might be a bad investment. It doesn't mean that the skills and training necessary to become a pilot are comparable to those of a doctor,a lawyer or other profession. It just requires a copious amount of a certain light blue expensive liquid to become a pilot.
Scandinavian13
New Member
Amount of time in training has nothing to do with it. Sure, from your perspective all I'm pointing out is it's a "bad investment," but my point is that we're equally specialized and should be paid that way. Right now, I'm working a job that requires nothing more than high school. Based on the fact that I needed very little education and time for the job, should I not be getting what I'm getting now? Is there a reason you're so against my point? Do you not want to get paid more for what you do? Put some value in what you do.
JA Yawd Bwoy
Well-Known Member
The way I see it is... If a doc screws up, he kills ONE person, if a pilot screws up, he can kill 1, 2, 50, 100, 400, maybe even 500 people instantaneously, not to mention that they all have to be kept comfortable. Not comparing life value, but I think comparing a doc's pay to a pilots pay is not exactly fair, not to mention pilots never stop learning so they hypothetically never leave school...
MFT1Air
Mfalme Soleimani
Sorry, you "point" confused me as well. Additionally, for each of your questions addressed, succinctly put, the answer is yes to all. Sorry, but I thought you were attempting to place dollar value invested into what you should be paid after completion of "training/education." I'd be hard pressed to compare doctors, lawyers, and newly minted commercial pilots pay wise.
Understand, a degreed college graduate who majors in music can also spent $100k for an education. That's also a lot of money invested for their trade as well. I bet they feel underpaid as well.
freeflyer
Well-Known Member
Ummmm.... You think that a airplane pilot is going to crash a bus because he is unfamiliar with it?
MFT1Air
Mfalme Soleimani
You're right. The A&Ps are underpaid as well. One mistake by a drunken mechanic out in the cold and the whole plane goes down. Hmmm, maybe they should make just as much as pilots? :bandit:
Killtron2000
Well-Known Member
You're saying that the amount of time in training doesn't matter but the cost does? You're also still ignoring the fact that it takes a pretty smart person to get through med school or law school unlike a flight school.
You are assuming a pilots training and qualifications are similar to a doctors or a lawyers which is not true. I'm not going to argue this further because most pilots are really proud of their certificates and won't admit they are anything less than sky ninjas.
Everyone wants to get paid more and starting pay for most professions is low. A lot of other jobs would have you starting out as an UNPAID intern.
If we have to pay the crews more than their market value that cost is going to be passed along to the public. Why do you feel entitled to more of their money? Do they not have their own problems to deal with? Most of us chose this career because it offered something besides the money. If money is the only thing important to you than why did you get into this line of work? If you didn't know what you were getting into than I don't have a lot of sympathy.
Killtron2000
Well-Known Member
A subway conductor is responsible for a lot of lives too. If being responsible for so many lives isn't worth it for only 24,000 a year than mostly likely you wouldn't have chosen this career.
I won't claim any of that comparing doctor vs pilot.... However, when I was in the Air Force someone raised their hand as the Air Force was raising the AD comitments for pilot training and asked a 1 star why Med School grads had only 1 year AD for each year of Med School paid by the Air Force. His answer: They could train 10 doctors for the price of 1 pilot. I'm not sure where he got that number but hey he was a General and no one asked him to prove his statement. Depending on the aircraft some Air Force pilots have north of 10 million dollars of verifiable training. Perhaps low level, NVG, air refueling, air-air, air-ground, multi ship, etc, etc have little value in the civilian sector, so the point is moot. On the other hand when things go south you never know what, in the bag of tricks might come in handy.
I don't know of any surgical specialty where the doctor would have 10 million in training.
Scandinavian13
New Member
Why is it that people will sit here and vent for hours on end about the low pay and long hours, and when I finally come up with some evidence/comparison/background/support, I'm flamed for it? I'm trying to make a point in defense of those getting paid less than me, while doing a lot more. I'm making a point that we're underpaid, and I'm attempting to pull in external data to show what other people are paid with similar specialisation.
The criterion by which one can compare one or more jobs are endless. I chose a few. It's not an accurate representation of an in depth comparison. It's an abstraction and that was all it was meant to be. If you want me to do a case study on it, someone's going to be paying me for it.
If you want to have little respect for what you do, that's fine, but for everyone else here who values what they do and sees it as special, I'm behind you.
The criterion by which one can compare one or more jobs are endless. I chose a few. It's not an accurate representation of an in depth comparison. It's an abstraction and that was all it was meant to be. If you want me to do a case study on it, someone's going to be paying me for it.
If you want to have little respect for what you do, that's fine, but for everyone else here who values what they do and sees it as special, I'm behind you.
ahsmatt7
Well-Known Member
It seems like some people need to do some soul searching. As said before, if you came to the industry looking for money...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA If you came to the industry to fly because thats what you love doing then im all for that. However, when people just complain about flying and the pay and hours, well idk what to say....go find another job. Well honestly, i bet 90 percent of the people in this forum would rather be doing what they are doing than have another job that doiesnt involve flying. It feels like there have been people constantly complainign about the very job they dreamed about. Put on your big kid shoes and stop crying. I can gaurantee that if you remembered why you wanted the job in the first place you wouldnt hate it as much, because most people cant stand their job. Most of you however are doing what you dreamed of doing all your life. But now, its becoming just another job. boohoo. Also next time someone bitches to you because thier flight was late, remember that they probably hate their job and you shouldnt hate your job. On the flip side, when a kid or someone comes up to you like you are their hero, take pride in what you do and stop complaining for one second about your job......that you once dreamed of getting.
AND comparing jobs is like apples to oranges.
AND comparing jobs is like apples to oranges.
It seems to me part of the issue is a lot of people equate having respect for what you do equals thinking you're the greatest thing to grace this earth. Then thinking anything less means you're putting down or disrespecting the profession. All it's doing is perpetuating a stereotype and not really doing much in they way of supporting the argument.
I mean really, people are comparing pilots to doctors and lawyers. Hell even most lawyers don't believe they're on the same level professionally as doctors. That's why they don't call themselves doctors even though they have a Juris Doctor degree. To top it off here's a quote from a doctor that appeared in a recent NOVA documentary.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/david.html
Great documentary by the way. Watch it here if anyone is interested. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/program.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/ads/
There you go, have at it.
Yea I wanted to make it to that one but couldn't unfortunately. I'll hopefully make it next time.