Glass Cockpits At Aviation Universities. What Do Schools Use Them For?

scott_l said:
He was indicating one or the other I'm supporting introduction to both.
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Bandit_Driver said:
IMO Universities going to all glass are making a mistake and giving a great disservice to their students. The students should be exposed to glass near the end of their training but (not) doing the majority of their training on it.
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Maybe they should start with steam, then glass, then reading comprehension.
 
We use sr20's at Aerosim, though throught just about all our training with exception of solo cross countrys the MFD stays on the engine page and the 2 430's on any page but the map page. We still use the seminole and arrows with steam guages so the students get a good taste of how to operate both systems. Lets face it, it wont be long till steam guages are a thing of the past, that is if your flying professionally.
 
IMHO the FAA should step up on this one, because Steam and Glass are vastly different animals, and there should at least be an endorsement, similar to the Additional Aircraft endorsements, for glass or steam, where you have to do certain tasks out of the Instrument PTS to receive the endorsement, that way, you have to demonstrate proficiency to a CFI prior to going up in the soup with no SA.
 
scott_l said:
I have limited experience but I do not agree with your statement that it is easier steam to glass. I have flown with a couple students who trained in steam gauge airplanes only to get in glass and be so completely consumed with the displays that they don't once look outside. The instructors usually end up covering the displays to get the students flying outside again and you wonder how they have a certificate. And if you have an instrument student that only knows how to load an approach but not activate it you are in a world of hurt. IMO the instrument rating should require exposure to both glass and steam gauge because exposure to one without the other is dangerous.
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That is a training issue where they are enamored by the glass and can be overcome in a few lessons. Once the student learns to prioritize the wealth of info they have. They can easily adjust to how the info and trends are displayed. Take an all glass pilot and toss him in a six pack see how long you have to work with him to get him safe in the soup.
 
bunk22 said:
Sounds like a great Capstone project!
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I believe they(I forget who) have already done some research on it.

IIRC, it basically said given an hour or so behind either, pilots did fine as long as there were no failures. As soon as • broke(AI), some people started having serious problems.... but these were mostly low time, like ppl only pilots.

Also, I remember reading the the NTSB found that while glass slightly reduced the total number of accidents compared to steam, a higher percentage were fatal.
 
z987k said:
I believe they(I forget who) have already done some research on it.

IIRC, it basically said given an hour or so behind either, pilots did fine as long as there were no failures. As soon as **** broke(AI), some people started having serious problems.... but these were mostly low time, like ppl only pilots.

Also, I remember reading the the NTSB found that while glass slightly reduced the total number of accidents compared to steam, a higher percentage were fatal.
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Bruce Chase has done research on it but I don't know where to find it.
 
CirrusPilot said:
We use sr20's at Aerosim, though throught just about all our training with exception of solo cross countrys the MFD stays on the engine page and the 2 430's on any page but the map page. We still use the seminole and arrows with steam guages so the students get a good taste of how to operate both systems. Lets face it, it wont be long till steam guages are a thing of the past, that is if your flying professionally.
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The Aerosim college program starts on the 172 then Cirrus for instrument, Seminole for CAMEL, I think its Cirrus for addon, then CFI is split with Cessna/Arrow.
 
Central Washington University just got our first glass piper warrior. We use only steam for all of private instrument and commercial and then allow students to get the experience of glass cockpit with the avidyne entegra during their multi engine rating in a piper seminole. Really do agree that starting out on steam before transitioning to glass helps develop a good instrument scan.
 
WMU uses it purely for recruitment. "this is a picture of our panels...this is a picture of a 747 panel....see it's nearly the same".
 
Adler said:
WMU uses it purely for recruitment. "this is a picture of our panels...this is a picture of a 747 panel....see it's nearly the same".
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Exaclty, I and others have talked to the Dean and it is like hitting our heads on a brick wall. They will sell the dream taht you will go from here to a fancy all glass airliner. For some yes, for the majority no.

What do the majority of entry level pilots jobs have? Steam Gauges.

What do a lot of cargo outfits have? Steam gagues

What are the freighters that are going to be in use for a long time. 1900's, C-208, E-110's, C-310', 402's, 421's, Shorts, B727's, 737's 200/300's, Older MD-80's, Lear 20/30's, Falcon 20's,

IF you are going to charge students 100K for an education then give them what they need to apply for any entry level position. I paid far less than that, learned on older equipment and believe my class got more for their money that what is being offered today.

just .02 worth.
 
Adler said:
WMU uses it purely for recruitment. "this is a picture of our panels...this is a picture of a 747 panel....see it's nearly the same".
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This is what I had in mind when i saw this thread. Glass offers one hell of a gee wiz that grabs a potential student's attention. A G1000 172 is a better trainer...it's just a better marketing tool.
 
Yeah we are using them alot now for marketing. They have turned out to be pretty sweet. So far were using them in our advanced time builder (optional though), the first few hours of commercial training, and then in our CFI course (most likely so that when we get our CFI we already know how to use the G1000)

While they are mainly being used for training, I got to take one up the other day for some "marketing" pictures. If I find the photographer I'll put the pics online!
 
Resurrecting an old discussion here - but wanted to give an update on our training program of putting all private pilot training in back-to-basics tailwheel airplanes - the Citabria. We have been blown away with how well our flight students are now learning basic flight skills, how to land the airplane consistently and correctly, and how well they have done in the transition to glass for Instrument (into our Skyhawks). We started the all-tailwheel private pilot training about 1 year ago, and we have been extremely pleased with the results.
If you are considering a school because of its commitment to all glass trainers and high end airplanes throughout the fleet - we would invite you to come visit LeTourneau University and have a flight in one of our Citabrias with an instructor here.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
IMO Universities going to all glass are making a mistake and giving a great disservice to their students. The students should be exposed to glass near the end of their training but doing the majority of their training on it. This will only handicap the student especially in the Situation Awareness area. What is their first job most likely to be. That's right flying dogged out freighter, a non-taa aircraft at a 135 pax opp, pipeline etc. Throw an all glass student in a steam airplane and they most likely will have a hard time flying it and have poor SA without all the fancy moving maps.

just my .o2 on all glass training....
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I have to agree with Bandit_Driver. Learn to fly the "6 pack" first and as expertly as possible. All you will develop with Glass is a good instrument "Stare." I have retired the last of the steam guage aircraft at my carrier and the move from Glass to steam guage is hard. It's simple the other way around.

Learning the old way first will pay dividends later. While the skill will decay with a lack of use, it will come back quikcly if you were proficient to begin with. Can you picture a hold entry with just an RMI? We were taught to do it that way and at one time in my DC-9 days I was pretty good at it. I didn't have glass in my recent, now gone, B73 and visualization simply made what was published on the FMC confirm-able.

Primary flight training should emphasize the basics and it also reinforces the limitations of what the instruments are telling you particularly pitot-static instruments. Whether it is a guage or a display it is still information taken from a pitot or static source and subject to the same limitations.
 
Just went from the Saab with a FMS back to a /A 727. Just like riding a bike and you just have to force yourself to keep the scan moving.
 
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