Giving Career Advice

juskl

juskl

Well-Known Member
Over the last few months, I have had the honor to talk to several potentially new students, whom have sought me out for advice on their flight training and career info. They were all as excited to know about this field as I (we) all were at the beginning of our careers. They wanted to know types of training? Which schools they should attend? Why my school? etc. etc...

So in thinking over my last 4 1/2 years being full time in this field (flight training), understanding what I personally need to do to move on, and what we are seeing as the changes in aviation over the forseeable future (as a profession), I told them the following:

For training:

Become a student of aviation and enjoy the journey.
Find a good school that will give you good instruction (I know this is very subjective), at the lowest price possible.
Your hour of flight time in a 94.00 an hour warrior logs the same as the 165.00 an hour G1000 Cessna. Do the math.
Don't get your butt in debt. You will make wayyyy too little to pay loans and live on what will be made over the first several years of your professional flying life.
Flight schools can be like used car dealers, and will tell you what they need to get you to buy their product.
Research all programs yourself and talk to former students.
Ask when you will do some cross country flying? If it flight number two... run... the instructor is trying to build cross country time on your back. You will learn nothing from this. Maybe fun, but is a waste of time and money. You are their to learn.. Make sure that is the school's goal as well.
Don't be in such a rush to get to the big iron, that you forget to learn how to fly.
Stick and Rudder baby. You can learn to program later.
Anyone that promises a minimum amount of time in your training, is full of it. Plan on adding about 30 percent to all costs to get a realistic price for your training.
No matter what you want to do in aviation, get your CFI. Not that you will use it, but you will truly realize what you didn't know.. and it is alot.
When you are training you are a student/customer. Yes, you should be treated with respect. But you don't dictate the syllabus nor safety. Don't like it, please take your money and business someplace else.

Career:

There are many dues to be paid in this field, and you usually find many more to pay as you move up the chain.
You never seem to have enough of the "right" time.
As soon as possible after your training you need to get the following amount of time:
ATP mins (we all know that it is coming folks) 1500 total etc.. and it isn't easy to get the 500 of actual cross country. This took me almost 9 years.
100 multi (PIC preferred). Most schools aren't keen on letting new instructors teach multi. This one can be very tough.
50 of actual IMC PIC (found this one out recently for many a job. So yes, when they say they want "actual", they mean in IMC. Not simulated in actual flight). Az folks take notice.. And yes, I am one of them.

No matter what you do in this idustry, make sure you like what you do and that it is all worth it for you and your family. You will have to make some tough choices out there. Don't be in this for the money, you will just be disappointed.

If you are young and single and have financial resources to use (no debt), then the world is your oyster. If you are a bit older, have a family, kids, house, bills, etc... study this industry very hard. There are no absolutes (really are there any absolutes in life??). And you may not want to put up with some of the hurdles in this industry.

And finally Southwest Airlines received over 7000 applications (from my inside source) for initially 100 pilot positions. What makes you think that you will get one of those slots?? We are talking very high time, experienced 121, 135 and Military pilot applicants. All of whom have thousands of hours and years of real world experience and they are all slugging it out for the chance to be hired. Be realistic in your time frame on your career. Not saying it is impossible, it just may take a while to get there. Say 10 to 15 years... maybe more??

There are many areas in professional aviation for us to find a home. And the airlines are but one of the paths to take. A big one, but still just one. Some of the happiest pilots (personally and professionally) are not airline pilots. In fact, I think the happiest is a cub driver up north of Fairbanks (go figure)..

Still want to hang in here for the profession? If you do, then great. Very happy to have you. And good luck in your career. Honestly, I love aviation. I cannot see myself doing anything else. But it is not all roses. Keep the blue side up, or not in my case.

Justin
 
juskl said:
Ask when you will do some cross country flying? If it flight number two... run... the instructor is trying to build cross country time on your back. You will learn nothing from this. Maybe fun, but is a waste of time and money. You are their to learn.. Make sure that is the school's goal as well.


Justin
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BS. I often take students on a cross country starting on lesson two and trust me, I don't need any more cross country time. Come to think of it, I don't any more flight time. It is not a waste of time nor money. It actually introduces pilots to concepts that they should know- such as weather, NOTAMs, maps, navigation, airports other than their home base and incorporates it from day. As a matter of fact the FAA has been pushing this type of scenario based training and calls it FITS. Heaven help a CFI applicant who shows up to our FSDO and does not know of this.
Does this mean stick/rudder is ignored? No. You incorporate it into the lesson. You have the pilot follow the Rio Grande while maintaining altitude- and point out objects you previously identified on the map. They learn how to tune a radio from day one since they have to change frequencies. Personally, I'd say someone not doing this is lazy.
 
So you are going to take someone on a x/c flight who hasn't even mastered the basics. I do call B.S. I know FITS, no problem with it. The FAA also recommends the building block style of instruction as well. And a student will get far more out of the cross country after they can fly alone and have the basics down. Not to mention all the grounds that go with the cross country. Only then is there a benefit, because they have a pretty good idea what is happening. We see this all too often when people come to us to finish up with us. There seems to be no order to the training and it looks as though someone used the shotgun approach to their training.

Training is not the best out there right now. Commercial pilots whom have never done turning stalls (kidding me??).

Phase 1 Learn the basics, Phase 2 solo and tightening up the maneuvers to PTS standards, Phase 3 Night flight, Dual cross countries, Mtn. Cross country and first solo cross country, Stg 4 Final solo mtn. cross country and getting ready for the checkride. Got to learn to walk before we can run.
 
juskl said:
So you are going to take someone on a x/c flight who hasn't even mastered the basics. I do call B.S. I know FITS, no problem with it. But a student will get far more out of the cross country after they can fly alone and have the basics down. Not to mention all the grounds that go with the cross country. Only then is there a benefit. We see this all too often when people come to us to finish up with us. Phase 1 Learn the basics, Phase 2 solo and tightening up the maneuvers to PTS standards, Phase 3 Night flight, Dual cross countries, Mtn. Cross country and first solo cross country, Stg 4 Final solo mtn. cross country and getting ready for the checkride. Got to learn to walk before we run.
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You teach the basics as you go on the cross country. The pilot masters slow flight, stalls, turns. Much of what kills pilots is not just stick and ruder skills, but decision making and they need to learn this day one. Reading weather, etc. Your way of teaching was outdated some time ago. You introduce concepts such as weather, NOTAMs and communications day one. I'm not new at teaching, nor at teaching this way and based upon the comments of the DEs and the FSDO on my students, I think I'll keep teaching this way and throw the BS flag at any snot nosed CFI who trys to tell me I'm ripping off students.
 
Snot nosed CFI??? Really. I am 40 years old. Snot nosed. Wow. I am all for decision making skills and it should be introduced as the student advances. Sure starts on day one, but then progresses up to the checkride. And the fact that we are a 141 school that has been in business in the Phoenix area for 31 years, yep we are old school. And it damn well works. Or we would have been out of biz long ago. Trust me, we have seen the pure quality of students put out by the supposed new way, none impressed. And yes, many a student is being taken in their instruction. Obviously hit a chord with you. I don't and will never agree with a cross country on lesson two. Sorry, would be like teaching Advanced math to a new math student. Doesn't make much sense.

And no, I am not new to teaching either. Easy on the snot nosed....
 
Moral of the story: There are 100 different ways to skin a cat. Just because one way works doesn't mean another is wrong. I know there isn't a universal answer on what is right/wrong in flight training. Do what you have to do to make it work for the individual student, don't force them into a cookie cutter syllabus and don't treat them like a number.
 
juskl said:
Snot nosed CFI??? Really. I am 40 years old. Snot nosed. Wow. I am all for decision making skills and it should be introduced as the student advances. Sure starts on day one, but then progresses up to the checkride. And the fact that we are a 141 school that has been in business in the Phoenix area for 31 years, yep we are old school. And it damn well works. Or we would have been out of biz long ago. Trust me, we have seen the pure quality of students put out by the supposed new way, none impressed. And yes, many a student is being taken in their instruction. Obviously hit a chord with you. I don't and will never agree with a cross country on lesson two. Sorry, would be like teaching Advanced math to a new math student. Doesn't make much sense.

And no, I am not new to teaching either. Easy on the snot nosed....
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No, snot nosed. Thought you knew about FITS, guess I was wrong:
http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/training/fits/training/generic/media/Private_sel.pdf

According to the FAA, lesson two is flying to another airport. You need to write the FAA and tell them they're ripping people off.

I've flown in just about every environment, military, civilian, 121, 135, taught throughout the world. I've written part 141 TCOs and OPS manuals and 135 OPSPECs. After years of doing it I've come to the conclusion that teaching people the things they need to know day one is the way to go. Decision making is not an afterthought for post solo, but skills that should be taught day one. You've got some nerve coming on the website and trying to tell people I'm out to rip them off and fishing for cross country flight time.
 
Putting an XC (I'm not talking 300nm) early in training can also be a great motivator and keep things interesting for the student.

Scenario 1: Student, we're going to go up and practice steep turns, stalls, and ground reference maneuvers. These maneuvers are important for passing your checkride. We'll stay in the practice area because that's what our flight school always does.

Scenario 2: Student, we're going to make our way over to KABC airport. They'll probably have a few cool old warbirds sitting out on the ramp. We'll practice steep turns and stalls on the way there. Mastering these maneuvers will make you a good pilot. We'll also have to watch out for forecast thunderstorms, as well as watch for traffic near KXYZ military base on the way out there. KABC has a control tower. I want you to learn from day one that this is nothing to be afraid of. On the way back, we'll drop down low and practice some ground reference maneuvers. These will help you learn to make the aircraft go exactly where you want it to go.
 
adk said:
Putting an XC (I'm not talking 300nm) early in training can also be a great motivator and keep things interesting for the student.

Scenario 1: Student, we're going to go up and practice steep turns, stalls, and ground reference maneuvers. These maneuvers are important for passing your checkride. We'll stay in the practice area because that's what our flight school always does.

Scenario 2: Student, we're going to make our way over to KABC airport. They'll probably have a few cool old warbirds sitting out on the ramp. We'll practice steep turns and stalls on the way there. Mastering these maneuvers will make you a good pilot. We'll also have to watch out for forecast thunderstorms, as well as watch for traffic near KXYZ military base on the way out there. KABC has a control tower. I want you to learn from day one that this is nothing to be afraid of. On the way back, we'll drop down low and practice some ground reference maneuvers. These will help you learn to make the aircraft go exactly where you want it to go.
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+1 for Number 2.

While I instruct at a 141 "cookie cutter" school most of the year (at the most awesome part 61 FBO during Summers) I try to get out of the syllabus as much as early as possible with a flight to a nearby airport for lunch, or most ideally, a fly-in breakfast. I am also trying to get the FITS concept introduced into glider flight instruction where I soar at, but not all of the higher-ups there understand why taking a student to another airport on their second flight is a good idea.

At the part 61 place (grass strip), I try to make the second or third flight a trip to a towered airport (about 40nm away) for lunch. On the way doing some maneuvers, some navigation, some radio tuning, some wind correction, and some FUN.
 
tlewis95 said:
+1 for Number 2....

...At the part 61 place (grass strip), I try to make the second or third flight a trip to a towered airport (about 40nm away) for lunch. On the way doing some maneuvers, some navigation, some radio tuning, some wind correction, and some FUN.
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+1 for scenario 2 as well.

Not only does it show the student what can be done, (and yes this might sound selfish) but it gives the instructor something new to do as well. Its so easy to burn out when you do maneuvers over the same patch of earth for days on end (and it starts to get boring for the student as well)

I even try to work in a mini XC for intros if I can get 2 people to go together. One flies to the airport...the other flies back, and trust me, they have way more fun than the typical intro where you go fly in circles for .5

To the OP though, I agree with 98% of what you said, just the XC part like was said before, can be skinned 100 different ways...
 
As far as cross-countries go, it really depends on what happens between point A and Point B that would make it effective on a second lesson.

To be fair, going to another airport and cross-country in term of training are two different things. I think we need to know what definition of cross-country we are talking about. Point to point or >50nm?

The FAA syllabus Blackhawk posted is a point to point cross-country. I can't see how anyone could argue a point-to-point cross country being bad.
 
+1 for Number 2.

While I instruct at a 141 "cookie cutter" school most of the year (at the most awesome part 61 FBO during Summers) I try to get out of the syllabus as much as early as possible with a flight to a nearby airport for lunch, or most ideally, a fly-in breakfast. I am also trying to get the FITS concept introduced into glider flight instruction where I soar at, but not all of the higher-ups there understand why taking a student to another airport on their second flight is a good idea.

At the part 61 place (grass strip), I try to make the second or third flight a trip to a towered airport (about 40nm away) for lunch. On the way doing some maneuvers, some navigation, some radio tuning, some wind correction, and some FUN.
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I think soaring operations are the hardest places to change habits. I've never encountered soo much resistance to change as I have at my glider club. I have fought for a few years now to get students going after the ABC Badges right away. It makes them feel good when they get one, and gives them a motivating factor to keep coming back and flying. I think more than anything we need to make flying fun if we are keeping to have a higher retention rate with new students. I love the FITS program. I think everyone should embrace it. I remember the first instruction flight I took as 17 year old all we did was fly about 40 miles north to circle my house and come back. Some say thats a waste of time. But getting to circle my house on the first flight was just awesome! It motivated me to keep coming back. Luckily where I live we can fly up to the Lake Erie Islands and students love that. I encourage all the instructors to take their students up to Put In Bay with in the first 5 lessons. It shows them what they can do once they have their license and it can really raise their spirits if they have been struggling.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Moral of the story: There are 100 different ways to skin a cat. Just because one way works doesn't mean another is wrong. I know there isn't a universal answer on what is right/wrong in flight training. Do what you have to do to make it work for the individual student, don't force them into a cookie cutter syllabus and don't treat them like a number.
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Well spoken... Some great CFIs I've known have still managed to put some fun in the "syllabus" in one way or the other depending on the student. Positive learning experience!
 
I dont get the discussion, the whole point of flying is to go places. If you're a new pilot, even straight and level flight is a learning experience. Anything that can be done in the practice area can be done on a cross country, including landing flare. See that road, your runway is at 2000 feet, we are at 3000, make an approach to land at that intersection and hold it off at 1000 to a power off stall. Plus they see and experience a new airport and the real benefit of a pilots license. Win, win.

It would be like teaching someone to drive but you drive them to a parking lot to practice driving without letting them drive on the roads, then saying, ok, you're ready, enjoy the traffic! It doesnt make sense. Sure you're not going to take them on a highway, but driving from a house to a parking lot to practice parallel parking is just as valuable an experience as the practice in the lot. Same holds true with flying.
 
I think the idea is that you could overwhelm a new pilot and turn him off to flying just as easily as getting him motivated.

It really is case by case on what needs to be done with the student. That one is in the FOI.
 
broncoav8r said:
+1 for scenario 2 as well.

I even try to work in a mini XC for intros if I can get 2 people to go together. One flies to the airport...the other flies back, and trust me, they have way more fun than the typical intro where you go fly in circles for .5
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I do this all the time too. It is surprising how many friends/family members come out that want to learn to fly together. They seem to stick around a lot more than people working on it "on their own." That could be a combination of having their friend in training with them, and as us going to an airport 20nm or so away for a cookie and a look around the hangar on the first flight. Whatever it is, it is a good thing.
 
No matter what you want to do in aviation, get your CFI. Not that you will use it, but you will truly realize what you didn't know.. and it is alot.

I don't think anyone should become a CFI if they don't want to teach. Those of us who are not CFI's still get to learn what we don't know...
 
First, this was not written to start a fight. To Blackhawk, if I in anyway offended you. I am sorry. Was not the intent. Let me tell you why I feel very strongly the way I do. We have seen this more and more at my school. Many a student is coming in to transfer. When we talk/interview them and go over their log books, we are seeing many a cross country flight early in their training. And many on the second flight. What is told to us by them is that they did enjoy the flight. Yet, they had no clue as to what was going on and that the flight cost them about four hundred dollars. They then go on to explain the difficulties of their past experiences and the frustrations that they felt with the training. After they finish with us, we are told over and over that they wish the training was done in the way that we do it, because it all seemed to make alot more sense.

Maybe it was a bad combination of the individual student and the individual instructor at another location. Maybe it was just a flght training facility that is less then stellar. If you have a program that is working with your students and you are successful, then great. I have no problem with that.

We are a busy school here and do not have time (unfortunately) for more then 1 1/2 hour time slots per student per lesson. That is unless the lesson calls for it (ie. cross country etc..). And we have been very successful with our model. Is it perfect? No. Have things changed over time? You bet. And they will in the future. Yes we have reviewed FITS. We don't agree with some of it. And we were just reapproved for 141, and after getting a new POI and almost a year of retooling, they seem very happy with our final product as well. But no, we don't follow the FITS model.

We are Old School. And we are very proud of that fact. Because many have come and gone and we are still here. We are an anomaly. We are stick and rudder to the max. No doubt. We still spend more time on Pilotage then anything else in cross countries. Not saying that anyone else on here does not. Just the way we do it. Do I wish we had Garmins in every plane? You bet I do. Do I wish I could take more time with my students? Sure I do. We just don't have the time. So everyone that flies with us in our programs, has to do it our way. And management mandates that as well. And it works for us. But it is not for everyone.

No, we are not a pilot mill. We are not an airline academy. Most people come to us because they see our tailwheel stuff and they want to fly them. So that is where it starts.

And I am not impressed with titles, nor the FAA on some days. And yet still enjoy the name calling.
 
Sounds like you guys have a good program. I will say though, that I was one of those instructors who'd take students out on short cross countries early in their lessons, and I do take a bit of offense to the idea that I was just trying to milk them for cross country time. In fact, I felt it was a great way to keep them interested and enthusiastic in the material. Instead of doing touch-and-goes at the same boring local airport, we'd hop over the hill to another field 20-25 miles away and do them there. It only added a small amount of extra time, and they always learned something new.

It's cool that you guys are Old School in terms of teaching people how to fly, but there are other methods out there to achieve the same purpose just as effectively.
 
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