Getting rid of complex singles!

G

goindownthepipes

Well-Known Member
Ok this I have seen in central florida quite a bit. Many schools in my area have 'junked' their complex single engine trainers in lieu of multi-engine trainers. The reasoning, a complex single doesn't fly enough to be worth keeping it on the line when faced with insurance premiums and other costs of operating an aircraft. The argument for the multi engine time is that many will pursue multi engine certification as a major goal for pilots is to move into a charter or airline job. The schools without a complex single would push for all initial commercial pilot certifications and initial CFI certifications be done in the twin and the other ratings as add ons in non-complex trainers. Anyone else noticing this trend? It started here with Embry Riddle when they switched to their new Part 142 training program and now other schools including my own are following suit (we just took our 1969 Arrow off the insurance and are looking to sell it). Also, I was wondering if any of you thought this is a good or bad idea for flight schools? Thanks.

Will
 
If it makes sense financially for the school I say go for it. The school where I got my multi hasn't had a complex single in several years. All the pilots I talked to didn't mind moving into a twin sooner, because single engine complex time is pretty useless anyway.
 
I've seen this trend too, and I'm not sure if I like it or not. I think we could open up a broader discussion on what the insurance industry is doing to the flight training industry, because really that's the reason for significant changes like this.

I guess I would say it's better to scrap the complex singles if not scrapping them would mean going out of business. Flight schools are stuck with huge insurance burdens nowadays, and something has to give.

I did my commercial and CFI training in Arrows, and looking back on it, I like that method a lot. I think it would be too big of a step to go from Cessna 152s to a light twin, but maybe it's easier than I think. I suppose we should listen to the responses from people who have actually gone down that path, and what they thought.
 
Why not do all your training after private in a complex multi? If you are career oriented it seems to be the best way to go. That is the way I did it and besides that first flight in the seminole it wasn't that tough of a transition.

I think for some, a school is only as good as the type of multi-engine program they offer.

That being said, a lot of my students just wanted a private and an instrument ticket though so I suppose it depends on who your customers are. Airline bound, or weekend type flyers?
 
Timbuff10 said:
Why not do all your training after private in a complex multi? If you are career oriented it seems to be the best way to go. That is the way I did it and besides that first flight in the seminole it wasn't that tough of a transition.

I think for some, a school is only as good as the type of multi-engine program they offer.

That being said, a lot of my students just wanted a private and an instrument ticket though so I suppose it depends on who your customers are. Airline bound, or weekend type flyers?
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For a school that concentrates mainly on airline career minded individuals it does makes sense. The added cost is a big factor though. If money is a big factor, it's cheaper to do your complex stuff in a single and wait until you are an instructor to build up that twin time, instead of paying $175/hr plus an instructor. That being said, if I had to do it over again I probably would have gone with a 141 program from a school that would emphasize the multi time early on.
 
I'm at Ari-Ben, I came here with a PPL and 70 hours in 152s and 172s. I immediatly went into the Beechcraft Duchess (a light twin). The transition really isn't that much more difficult. I now prefer to fly the twin, two engines are safer than one. Also when I complete my training I'll have 200 hours of multi time for about the same price as everybody else pays for the traditional route. I figure that will put me at the (ME)minimums for most of the regionals, and just below for a lot of corporate jobs.

I think we can say insurance companies are screwing people across the board. From FBOs to HMOs.
 
I guess it does all make sense. Only way a student would really benefit from a complex single would be the slight cost savings. Then again after all the training is done a career oriented student would still have to spend money to build that twin time. I crunched some numbers and looked at the average cost of doing a multi commercial initial and then a single add on in a 172 or 152 versus the single engine commercial in the arrow (or the Cessna 172 and Arrow combo Embry Riddle does) and the cost of the first option isn't all that much higher yet you get about 10 more hours of twin time out of it. I saw the insurance we were paying on that arrow and the hours it flew a year and we were losing money on it for sure. Looks like the curtain may be closing on complex singles in the career training environment.

Will
 
For those that are "junking" their complex singles, SEND ONE TO US! Our Arrow is book from dawn to past dusk about 6 days a week. The seventh day is just dawn to dusk. We could really use another Arrow seeing as how people actually working on CSEL ratings are having a hard time a) getting training and b) getting a checkride scheduled due to lack of availability.

The reason a lot of schools use complex singles instead of twins is the insurance. If you've just got your PPL multi and want to fly around in a twin, good luck finding someone to insure you if you have less than 200-250 hours. Some schools use them as part of the rental (OMG, yes people other than career students rent airplanes!) fleet. Another place where the Arrow is popular. It's the same price as a 172SP, it's faster and I think it flies better.
 
Hey kellwolf, if you need an Arrow I may be able to hook you up with ours. I believe she's midtime on the airframe...about 6-7000 hours if I remember correctly but don't quote me on that. She's a 1969 Piper Arrow with the IO-360 180HP engine (the original arrow). She flies well only thing about her is that she's on her third wing I think. Since it was used for training students occsionally had hard landings and it did a number on the landing gear trunnions. I don't think she's ever been geared up though so I guess that's the only damage history. Her engine has got about 100 hours on it since last overhaul and she starts great. I think my boss would be asking about 50K to 60K for her.

Will
 
Another school follows suit!

Ok, another school has just followed Embry Riddles example in the Daytona area and is selling their Arrows. Phoenix East Aviation has now also decided to push all certifications beyond the initial private in the multi. They currently have three Arrows and plan on selling two of them and making one only used by the 'brass' as a courier. I'm tellin' ya guys, this could become an industry wide trend.

Will
 
I've seen PEA's Arrows. I'm not sure I'd buy one for parts. I think the issue might be they are getting so old that it doesn't pay to maintain them anymore. There really aren't any other affordable SE complex trainers on the market that are fairly new anymore. Most of the newer Arrows are geared more towards XC speed rockets instead of training.
 
Pan Am in Phoenix has also eliminated the Arrow from their FAA Part 141 program. Some of the foreign contract students (specifically KLM Academy) use the Arrows for their training, but the FAA students will no longer receive a CPL ASEL as a part of the program. All the CPL/complex training will be conducted in the Seminole.

Arrows are fairly expensive to operate (though not as expensive as the Seminole or most other twins), so it makes economic sense for the students here to skip it and start building ME time right away. I guess that means more Arrows for the FBO rental fleet...
 
Seminoles make a decent amount of sense....up until you start hitting wing spar life limits and have to find replacements. Then you wind up in the middle of a corn field in Illinois looking at an old U of Illinois Seminole with brown tweed and orange vinyl interior. Even though it's been taken off a runway, had the wing half cut off by a pole and the stabilator dented to hell, you look at your mechanic and say "Can we fix this? We've got two that are gonna time out in a few months?"
 
kellwolf, what exactly do you mean by "time out"? I once heard from someone that Piper Seminoles had a limit to the number of hours that could be put on them, after which, they could no longer be flown again. Is this true for the Arrow as well? It's funny that I found this thread as I had just asked a guy at the airport this very question today. He told me that he had never heard of such a thing. I would appreciate it if you could shed some light on this subject for me. Thanks.
 
Seminoles have an AD out limiting the life of the wing spar assembly (not sure of the exact number off the top of my head, though). We've got one plane here in a hangar that has been being scavanged for spare parts for a while, and I had the distinct honor of helping take one of the wings off the other day. We've got two more that will "time out" in about 500 more hours, which isn't really that long in flight school terms. As far as the Arrow, I don't think it has that limitation.
 
14,663 hours is the magic number! We have three Seminoles in our fleet and one of them has 11,XXX hours on it. We don't need the three twins so my boss is trying to sell it. I doubt a flight school would take it so I thought of even buying it myself. I don't see myself putting on 3000 hours all that quickly.
 
Hey thanks for that information. So then, if a seminole reaches that number of hours, they can have the wing spars rebuilt and the aircraft will be airworthy again? I wonder how much you could get that Seminole for with all of those hours.
 
I think, though don't quote me on this that they can be rebuilt/repaired. However the cost is usually as much if not more than the aircraft is even worth at that time. I have heard rumors that 'timed out' seminoles have been sold to third world countries who have no regulatory life limits on the hull like the FAA has put on US based Seminoles. As for price of high time seminoles, i would gander that about 60,000 to 75,000 dollars would be acceptable depending on equipment.

Will

Will
 
greaper007 said:
I now prefer to fly the twin, two engines are safer than one.
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You might want to check the Air Safety Foundation's statistics before you say that.

I just did a quick and dirty scan for GA accidents. Here are the results from the first 10 NTSB hits.
5 SE/5 ME accidents
4 out of 5 ME accidents were fatal (the non fatal was a Convair 580)
2 out of 5 SE accidents were fatal.

greaper007 said:
Also when I complete my training I'll have 200 hours of multi time for about the same price as everybody else pays for the traditional route. I figure that will put me at the (ME)minimums for most of the regionals, and just below for a lot of corporate jobs.
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300tt/200 multi is going to be next to worthless. Face it. You guys have been duped into spending the extra money under the misnomer that it is more marketable. Flight schools sell multi hours for one thing to make money. My job is to KEEP as much of my money as possible, not figure out ways to spend it faster. Multiengines provide a higher profit margin and command higher instructor rates. Historically, it has been the multiengine rating that was the "add on." Not the single. You will indeed finish with more multi hours but you will have spent a lot more than a person who does PSEL, IA, CSEL, CMEL (add on). If you want the 200 hours of multi, rent it solo. At least you won't be paying an instructor to ride with you. (Which is actually what the schools have sold the instructors on).

If a flight school has a complex single that is not being used....it is BECAUSE it is not being used. I'm sure you could stick a B52 on the line and some school would figure out how to put it in a curriculum. Complex singles should out number multis on your ramp (unless you are an airline).

The mulit time MAY help you land your first flying job. But if that job happens to be banner towing, SE 135 freight (FedEx Caravan) or PC12 etc, that multi time will be worthless. Not to mention that once you finish your ratings your currency clock starts ticking.
 
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