Getting off the scab list

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jtrain609 said:
Are we really saying that throwing an egg at somebody is the same thing as taking a baseball bat to their skull?
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no. If you throw it however, and it hits them in the eye and puts out their eye, its reckless disregard (John, you should already know this, but for the rest of you http://law.yourdictionary.com/reckless-disregard) and it is a violation of the law.
jtrain609 said:
If this wasn't Todd, arguments like that would NEVER fly around here.
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that is flat bull, John and you know I am not after him for that, I have been supportive of him and have appreciated him for sticking it out here and bringing his wisdom on the other issues. I have, however, been trying to demonstrate that he is incorrect on this issue (and so are you if you think that it's acceptable to throw eggs or spit) and was hoping he might make that realization, but so far he is still holding on to his belief that unions have nothing to do with violence that happen at job actions.
jtrain609 said:
..but if you guys don't see that this is unravelling because of who's in the thread (and further evidenced by pullups jab) then there are other issues going on that folks want to ignore in favor of being able to rip on somebody that they don't like.
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I am not finished with pullup yet over this...that is an escalation and an unnecessary dig he knows it we all know it.
 
no. If you throw it however, and it hits them in the eye and puts out their eye, its reckless disregard (John, you should already know this, but for the rest of you http://law.yourdictionary.com/reckless-disregard) and it is a violation of the law.
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I'm not entering into a legal argument. You're now a lawyer and neither am I, so that discussion is moot. You're reaching, and this is outside the scope of this discussion.

that is flat bull, John and you know I am not after him for that, I have been supportive of him and have appreciated him for sticking it out here and bringing his wisdom on the other issues.
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I haven't followed your interactions post by post with Todd, but I have followed how the forum treats him and again, I think it's bunk.

I have, however, been trying to demonstrate that he is incorrect on this issue (and so are you if you think that it's acceptable to throw eggs or spit) and was hoping he might make that realization, but so far he is still holding on to his belief that unions have nothing to do with violence that happen at job actions. I am not finished with pullup yet over this...that is an escalation and an unnecessary dig he knows it we all know it.
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The only lesson a public flogging teaches is that it's better to leave than stick around and try to further what we do here, whatever that is.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm not entering into a legal argument. You're now a lawyer and neither am I, so that discussion is moot. You're reaching, and this is outside the scope of this discussion.
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( I just spoke with a lawyer about this issue and she confirmed my assessment...)

No I'm not reaching...assault is assault is assault. sorry. The discussion is not moot, it is on point..it's as if you want to look a pig in the face and call it a puppy. I don't get it. The only time I get frustrated is when people cannot see reality. Click the link, read it, it doesn't take a lawyer, a law student, or a dumb blonde like me to see what reckless disregard is. You may deny it has anything to do with this argument, but that is merely denial, not reality.

I posted about how many union actions went sideways and people were injured, yet Todd does not recognize that as fact either. I guess we shouldn't let facts get in the way of our chosen positions. This is the same thing you two accuse Waco of (and me as well) just from the other side!
 
seagull said:
Does that mean you tolerate willful non-compliance of a regulation or procedure because you have, personally, decided that the particular regulation or operating procedure for your aircraft does not suit you?
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Do you go to the Chief Pilot and file a report every time you fly with someone who talks while taxiing or below 10,000 ft? No? Well, you're "tolerating willful non-compliance of a regulation or procedure." See how ridiculous it is? I'm sorry, but someone getting spit at as he crossing a picket line to steal someone's job is not something that gets me worked up, anymore than someone making a quick non-required comment while taxiing out to the runway will get me worked up. It's just not something to spend a whole lot of time getting worried about.

Now, if someone brings a baseball bat to the picket line? That's something to worry about. Someone throwing rocks? Again, something to worry about. But spitting? No, I'm not losing sleep.

Cav said:
What I do know is that promoting actions as he did does nothing to help our cause.
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Whoa, who did any promoting? I haven't promoted anything. I'm not advocating for such behavior. Hell, I would discourage it if I was on the picket line. But it's not something that I think is a serious problem, and it's not something that anyone should consider "violence." People in this thread have said that unions condone violence. That's BS, and they know it. Yes, angry epithets are screamed, people spit, maybe even throw eggs, but that's not violence. Unions are not engaging in or advocating any violence whatsoever in this country. The people that say that they are being dishonest.
 
Bumblebee said:
( I just spoke with a lawyer about this issue and she confirmed my assessment...)

No I'm not reaching...assault is assault is assault. sorry. The discussion is not moot, it is on point..it's as if you want to look a pig in the face and call it a puppy. I don't get it. The only time I get frustrated is when people cannot see reality. Click the link, read it, it doesn't take a lawyer, a law student, or a dumb blonde like me to see what reckless disregard is. You may deny it has anything to do with this argument, but that is merely denial, not reality.

I posted about how many union actions went sideways and people were injured, yet Todd does not recognize that as fact either. I guess we shouldn't let facts get in the way of our chosen positions. This is the same thing you two accuse Waco of (and me as well) just from the other side!
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I must not have been clear.

I am not making a legal argument, nor will I. I flat out refuse to enter into this discussion. If you continue to post on this matter that's fine, but understand I am not entering into any kind of a legal argument regarding this issue. I am not arguing with you, I am refusing to corporate in this discussion with you.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Unions are not engaging in or advocating any violence whatsoever in this country. The people that say that they are being dishonest.
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that's not exactly what I was saying, what I am trying to say is that there have been many instances even into the 21st century when the atmosphere in a job action led a union member to assault (the threat of violence) or batter (the actual application of physical force such as spitting, or throwing eggs) on people crossing, or otherwise engaged in behavior not desired by the offending member.

I know for a fact that union members used aggressive tactics that were designed to intimidate people into honoring their picket lines, and that this created an atmosphere of escalation at times, and this has occurred into the 21st century. I also know for a fact that there were two people arrested during the firefighter strike in 1970, my father who after the strike made up with his scab friend after the strike ended, and the other became president of Local 522 AFL/CIO they were in fact both lauded by the union and the other union members for their "commitment" to the cause. So I know for a FACT that I am not being dishonest, and to say that is unfair, and inaccurate.

(To answer some other allegations, I do not have it out for you, and appreciate many of the other educational aspects of what you post, and we could easily sit over a beer (crown for me) and have this discussion. )
 
Ok, lots of catching up to do. First off, regarding my dig at Todd, i don't agree with what he did and like to remind him now and again. If it is red card material then I will stop.

The fact that jtrain doesn't realize hitting someone with an object constitutes assault or battery is laughable. That's law school negative 101.

While some may feel that I, and others, are out for Todd well thats plain wrong. I take issue with his position in the union and his position on the issues. If I met him I would have no issues sitting down for a beer, same with jtrain and surreal and anyone else. I have no problem saying what I say here, face to face.

Dale, be gentle.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Whoa, who did any promoting? I haven't promoted anything. I'm not advocating for such behavior. Hell, I would discourage it if I was on the picket line.
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Your post indicated by your own words that you had no problem with it but thanks for the clarification.
 
pullup said:
Ok, lots of catching up to do. First off, regarding my dig at Todd, i don't agree with what he did and like to remind him now and again. If it is red card material then I will stop.

The fact that jtrain doesn't realize hitting someone with an object constitutes assault or battery is laughable. That's law school negative 101.

While some may feel that I, and others, are out for Todd well thats plain wrong. I take issue with his position in the union and his position on the issues. If I met him I would have no issues sitting down for a beer, same with jtrain and surreal and anyone else. I have no problem saying what I say here, face to face.

Dale, be gentle.
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I appreciate the way you took that one :)
I want to be able to have discussions without having them siderailed and then discounted because of the appearance of a personal vendetta, especially when there is none.
 
Bumblebee said:
that's not exactly what I was saying, what I am trying to say is that there have been many instances even into the 21st century when the atmosphere in a job action led a union member to assault (the threat of violence) or batter (the actual application of physical force such as spitting, or throwing eggs) on people crossing, or otherwise engaged in behavior not desired by the offending member.
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I don't disagree with that, but that's not anything that a union is responsible for or could ever prevent, no matter how hard that they try. Strikes are incredibly emotional events. When you go on strike and someone crosses your line, they are stealing your job and your ability to provide for your family. That tends to create a very emotionally charged environment, and people being people, some of them (on both sides) will behave poorly and do things that they shouldn't. That may even include violence. But again, that's not the union advocating violence, fostering it, or turning a blind eye to it. It's just individual people taking matters into their own hands and doing things that the union doesn't advocate and doesn't support. When certain people here on JC talk about unions and violence, they are saying that the union itself approves of violence and fosters it. That's just a lie, and it shouldn't be tolerated.
 
I see what you are saying above and appreciate that is your perspective, but I was alive and smart enough to understand what my father told me about the strike, and I can say for certain during that strike you are not correct...for sure, I was there. This is first hand from what happened with my father and the Union President, and it was talked about for YEARS, even when I was on the department...
ATN_Pilot said:
Throwing eggs at scabs and spitting on them as they cross the line is one thing, and I see nothing wrong with any of that,
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ATN_Pilot said:
Hell, I would discourage it if I was on the picket line.
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if you see nothing wrong with it, then why would you discourage it?
 
Bumblebee said:
if you see nothing wrong with it, then why would you discourage it?
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Even though I don't see it as being a big deal or something to get worked up about, it's also not something that I think is professional (obviously), and I think pilots should always try to present the most professional image possible on the picket line. That's why we march instead of just standing around, why we wear our hats and blazers, why we don't talk or chant while marching, etc.
 
I think there's a misapprehension about how all of this works. Management absolutely plays hardball...they'll buy, borrow, beg, or steal (mostly buy) whatever state-sanctioned interest they need to abrogate contracts and treat human beings as numbers on a ledger sheet (witness the many pitiful stories of guys who "can't feed their kids so they gotta cross"). Under those conditions, the only way to swim with the sharks is to play ball just as hard. I cannot concern myself with someone else's circumstances any more than the company can...it's "just business". Now, if you think that's a sad way to exist (as I do), you really ought to take that up with your elected representatives. They set the field, they move the goalposts when enough money is waved at them.

In the end, it's not up to me how the game is played, it's up to me to pick a team. I pick Union. It's not that I don't feel sympathy for those "forced to cross"...in many, maybe even most cases, I would feel on a personal level a great deal of pity. But my professional obligation (and thus, in the end, in my own interest) is to shun them. I will discharge that obligation in every way legally permissible. That's the only way to fight back. It's the economic equivalent of "total war". I miss the time to be a gentleman was expected, but Unions didn't cause the expiration of that time...they reacted to it.
 
Specious. If there hadn't been a union, they wouldn't have been paid what they were. By all means, if you want to be a free agent and think unions are just gangs, cross a line. Just don't come whining when you're treated like something I have to scrape off the bottom of my shoe.
 
Scabbing is on the decline, look at Amerijet and Spirit. There's a lot of unity out there because most pilot groups have reached rock bottom, it can't get any worse.
 
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