Getting off the scab list

[Bandit_Driver]

Guam was a popular destination for the flight kits of scabs at Continental. Who knew those bags loved to travel so much.

Being a scab is for life, there's no coming back from it. As far as I'm concerned, there are a few things in life that you don't screw with unless you're willing to pay the consequences. My wife and my job are on that list.

You don't want to be a scab in a union shop. Everyone knows that sticking together results in a better deal for the worker bees, as a whole. You might have a short term gain by being a scab but you'll have long term pain with the career in many ways. I once was cockpit jumpseating on a United flight and there was a United scab deadheading in the back. The crew explained the situation to me that they wanted me in the cockpit and the scab in the back. During deplaning, when the United scab went by the cockpit there were words exchanged and the United Captain literally chased the scab up the jetway shouting at the him. I think the scab was used to it as he had little to say in return. This was over 15 years ago and in this gentler, kinder, present day litigation environment, I'm sure the scab would have filed a harassment lawsuit. But scabs will always be seen as sticking a knife in the backs of their fellow pilots. Why be accepting of that?

Could have said it better myself. I have also also seen Captains pull out the Master Scab list and run the names of those requesting jumpseats against the list.

 

[Cav]

One of the guys had crossed the picket line back then because he couldn't afford to pay the bills and feed his family otherwise.

Pulease.....

Have an emergency fund, live within your means, and none of this becomes an issue. If you don't, you only have yourself to blame.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Pulease.....

Have an emergency fund, live within your means, and none of this becomes an issue. If you don't, you only have yourself to blame.

I haz it!

 

[flyboy6585]

Pulease.....

Have an emergency fund, live within your means, and none of this becomes an issue. If you don't, you only have yourself to blame.

Well if you are making airline pay, with the 2.2 kids, and living in middle America you might be able to make it work.

My grandpa worked for a telephone company. Not sure what he was getting paid back in the 70s but it wasn't all that much. They lived in very rural places...and had 12 kids (8 home at the time) to feed, clothe, transport to the school. And mom was a stay at home mom. So when a union decides to strike for a month or two you "emergency fund" goes away quite rapidly. Other jobs weren't plentiful...he crossed the line because the kids were going to have to start missing meals.

I understand the whole stick together concept, but not every situation is the same. Those who cross just to make the extra money deserve to be tarred and feathered...if it literally means the difference between my kids eating or not then my kids are more important than people calling me names. He took the time to explain his situation and went on to work my more years there without any significant issues.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

But I thought unions didn't promote violence? Obviously, they do.

What union is promoting violence? You know that's a bunch of BS. No union in this country promotes violence. Individual morons may take matters into their own hands, but certainly not with the consent or involvement of their union.

I have to question the above bolded statements. Remember that ALPA "forgave" the CAL scabs, since it was in their best interest to do so in order to get back on property there.

Not true. A court of law forced ALPA to "forgive" the CAL scabs. In what is commonly called the "order and award," a judge issued a ruling prohibiting ALPA and its members from taking any action that could be considered retribution towards the scabs.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Pulease.....

Have an emergency fund, live within your means, and none of this becomes an issue. If you don't, you only have yourself to blame.

So let's run a scenario for the high and mighty. You're 48 years old; have a mortage on a middle class house in the suburbs; two kids in college; car payments for normal middle of the road cars; plus all normal expenses. You go on strike for 6 months, in fact, you're head of a strike committee talking to ALPA on a daily basis. You're savings get depleted and the money the union is giving you from the strike fund is not enough to cover the monthly nut. You can't get another job because of your age ( this was 1989 after all ). ALPA National is telling you to go back to work three months into the strike. 6 months into the strike you and a large portion of your striking colleagues want to go back to work. However, you get out voted by a slim margin to stay on strike. The group that out voted you have already got jobs at UAL, USAir, Piedmont, Midway ,etc or they are old enough to retire. They want to see Lorenzo screwed. So the next day you and 900 of your colleagues decide you have to survive and nobody can help you do it by any means other than returning to work. So you all sign up to go back to work. You're now labeled an Eastern scab and placed on a list.

Those 900 guys generally get along pretty well with those who did not go back to work. Why?, because they all struck together for 6 months. Those guys understand where each was coming from, but if they run into a pilot from another airline or some kid here on JC they are scums of the earth.

The UAL pilots think themselves heroes for going on strike for 35 days. Anybody can take a one month break from work without pay. When it stretches to six months ( EAL ) or two years ( CAL ) and you can stay on strike without a job then you might be a hero. If you decide it's more important to take care of your bills and your family you become a "scab".

Think about it. What would you really do in those situations? Many of you are too young and just don't understand the pressures involved. Career going down the drain; mortgage payments late; car payments late; wife leaving you. How many suicides were there on the EAL and CAL strikes? Do you guys know?

Somebody who crosses a picket line to get a take a job away from somebody on strike is a scab. That is unforgiveable, but guys who go back to work after being on strike for a long period of time should not be labelled scabs in the same sentence.

I've worked with many many ex-EAL and CAL pilots over the years. I worked in a foreign country with 3 types of EAL pilots ( ones who never went back to work, ones who went back after 6 months and ones who crossed the line to take a job ) The first two groups got along okay. I worked at a major manufacturer with a management pilot who crossed on day 1; one who didn't go back; and ones who went back after 6 months. They all got along okay.

One thing that seems to occur here on JC regularly is this academic attitude towards unions and scabs. Most of you have no concept of what it's like when it actually happens.



Typhoonpilot

 

[jtrain609]

So let's run a scenario for the high and mighty. You're 48 years old; have a mortage on a middle class house in the suburbs; two kids in college; car payments for normal middle of the road cars; plus all normal expenses. You go on strike for 6 months, in fact, you're head of a strike committee talking to ALPA on a daily basis. You're savings get depleted and the money the union is giving you from the strike fund is not enough to cover the monthly nut. You can't get another job because of your age ( this was 1989 after all ). ALPA National is telling you to go back to work three months into the strike. 6 months into the strike you and a large portion of your striking colleagues want to go back to work. However, you get out voted by a slim margin to stay on strike. The group that out voted you have already got jobs at UAL, USAir, Piedmont, Midway ,etc or they are old enough to retire. They want to see Lorenzo screwed. So the next day you and 900 of your colleagues decide you have to survive and nobody can help you do it by any means other than returning to work. So you all sign up to go back to work. You're now labeled an Eastern scab and placed on a list.

Those 900 guys generally get along pretty well with those who did not go back to work. Why?, because they all struck together for 6 months. Those guys understand where each was coming from, but if they run into a pilot from another airline or some kid here on JC they are scums of the earth.

The UAL pilots think themselves heroes for going on strike for 35 days. Anybody can take a one month break from work without pay. When it stretches to six months ( EAL ) or two years ( CAL ) and you can stay on strike without a job then you might be a hero. If you decide it's more important to take care of your bills and your family you become a "scab".

Think about it. What would you really do in those situations? Many of you are too young and just don't understand the pressures involved. Career going down the drain; mortgage payments late; car payments late; wife leaving you. How many suicides were there on the EAL and CAL strikes? Do you guys know?

Somebody who crosses a picket line to get a take a job away from somebody on strike is a scab. That is unforgiveable, but guys who go back to work after being on strike for a long period of time should not be labelled scabs in the same sentence.

I've worked with many many ex-EAL and CAL pilots over the years. I worked in a foreign country with 3 types of EAL pilots ( ones who never went back to work, ones who went back after 6 months and ones who crossed the line to take a job ) The first two groups got along okay. I worked at a major manufacturer with a management pilot who crossed on day 1; one who didn't go back; and ones who went back after 6 months. They all got along okay.

One thing that seems to occur here on JC regularly is this academic attitude towards unions and scabs. Most of you have no concept of what it's like when it actually happens.



Typhoonpilot

All you are describing are excuses.

Real men don't make excuses, they find solutions.

Scabbing is not a solution, it's a cop out and an excuse.

My grandfather had 9 mouths to feed when he went on strike when he was 50. You know what he did? He went to dig ditches for a living at the age of 50.

Real men don't make excuses.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

All you are describing are excuses.

Real men don't make excuses, they find solutions.

Scabbing is not a solution, it's a cop out and an excuse.

My grandfather had 9 mouths to feed when he went on strike when he was 50. You know what he did? He went to dig ditches for a living at the age of 50.

Real men don't make excuses.

Amen. Six months out of work while you're getting a strike benefit from the union is nothing that should make any responsible man panic. Any major airline pilot should have 6-12 months of living expenses set aside in cash during normal times, let alone when you see a strike coming. If you're irresponsible and don't have cash set aside for hard times, then you're not deserving of sympathy when you cross the picket line.

 

[Bumblebee]

What union is promoting violence? You know that's a bunch of BS. No union in this country promotes violence. Individual morons may take matters into their own hands, but certainly not with the consent or involvement of their union.

.

Oh come on. really? You didn't respond to the long list I provided in the other thread and now you make the same inaccurate claim? Look, the union itself doesn't come out with a let's get violent and break the law, but there is a permissiveness, and even post strike adulation for those "goons". (You know that is the name for union enforcers.) My father was one, and his best friend for life (still after all these years) was a scab. They had a painting business called S&G Painting (Scab and Goon).

I think you have a lot of important information, but if you cannot admit what we know to be true, then your view is too myopic to believe. By denying what we all know to be true you damage the creditability of any of your assertions.

 

[WacoFan]

Oh come on. really? You didn't respond to the long list I provided in the other thread and now you make the same inaccurate claim? Look, the union itself doesn't come out with a let's get violent and break the law, but there is a permissiveness, and even post strike adulation for those "goons". (You know that is the name for union enforcers.) My father was one, and his best friend for life (still after all these years) was a scab. They had a painting business called S&G Painting (Scab and Goon).

Don't poke the bear! DON'T POKE THE BEAR!!1!

Here's some mollification.

[video=youtube;_f2J4ceCikI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f2J4ceCikI[/video]

 

[Cav]

For every woe is me scab there are 10 guys who sucked it up and dealt with the situation with the same or tougher circumstances.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Oh come on. really? You didn't respond to the long list I provided in the other thread and now you make the same inaccurate claim? Look, the union itself doesn't come out with a let's get violent and break the law, but there is a permissiveness, and even post strike adulation for those "goons". (You know that is the name for union enforcers.) My father was one, and his best friend for life (still after all these years) was a scab. They had a painting business called S&G Painting (Scab and Goon).

Well, what ATN may be saying is that the union can't be responsible for the actions of it's members. Yankees are responsible for their team fans getting in fights with Red Sox fans (and losing the fight of course, because New Yorkers are silly girly men), so the argument goes.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Oh come on. really? You didn't respond to the long list I provided in the other thread and now you make the same inaccurate claim? Look, the union itself doesn't come out with a let's get violent and break the law, but there is a permissiveness

That's a specious claim. You're assuming that there is a permissiveness, but I've never seen any evidence of it whatsoever in modern times. To the contrary, it becomes a distraction, so most union leaders do everything they can to actively discourage that nonsense. Throwing eggs at scabs and spitting on them as they cross the line is one thing, and I see nothing wrong with any of that, but outright violence is something entirely different, and no union condones it or turns a blind eye to it.

 

[Cav]

Throwing eggs at scabs and spitting on them as they cross the line is one thing, and I see nothing wrong with any of that,

I've got a problem with it. It's childish and accomplishes nothing for our cause. If you want to be treated like children act like one. Take the high road.

 

[Bumblebee]

Throwing eggs at scabs and spitting on them as they cross the line is one thing, and I see nothing wrong with any of that, but outright violence is something entirely different, and no union condones it or turns a blind eye to it.

Thank you for proving my point. In any state those acts are listed in the penal code as battery, and if that's ok (particularly in the mind of a stressed out striker) then escalation must be ok as well. If you don't think spitting on someone is worthy of a battery charge, then try it on a cop. If you bring eggs, that shows premeditated intent to commit assault and battery, and could be a felony. I guess I'll go dig out that list that you so conveniently ignored before.

The mere fact that you ( as a union manager) feel that these ( apparently minor) crimes are ok, creates an environment where worse crimes can, and often do take place. If you cannot see that, then I must, as an outside observer, question your judgment and your clarity on this issue. Sorry.

 

[Cav]

One can picket and strike without acting like a worthless redneck ATN. ALPA would prefer us to act as professionals inside the flight deck as well as outside regardless of what confronts us...so I'll take the more effective high road.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I've got a problem with it. It's childish and accomplishes nothing for our cause. If you want to be treated like children act like one. Take the high road.

I didn't say this he did. But sometimes things aren't so simple. What if you go on an extended strike for more than 30 days? With the regional pay these days things could get rough quick. Another issue is what if the pilot group is split? Lower time FOs making crap and Captains doing well? The idea of seniority is working hard for less proving your worth and making more money as you get more experience, while first yr regional pay is crap for sure, sometimes the false sense of entitlement and pilots sell they're long term futures short to make an extra 500/month now.

Also, it can get more complicated than that. How would the pilots feel if the FA's went on strike and they were forced out of work when they were happy with they're contract? Or the mechanics?

I'm just saying its not always as simple as "we want more money, or more time off!" That said, I don't work for a 121 carrier and I'm certainly don't see myself crossing the picket line. But just saying its not always cut and dry.

 

[Cav]

What if you go on an extended strike for more than 30 days? With the regional pay these days things could get rough quick.

Two things...
1) If RJ pay is low how is crossing a picket line going to help?
2) Since RJ pay is low it should be easier to replace it while on strike correct? Waiting tables or delivering pizza could cover it!!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The mere fact that you ( as a union manager) feel that these ( apparently minor) crimes are ok, creates an environment where worse crimes can, and often do take place. If you cannot see that, then I must, as an outside observer, question your judgment and your clarity on this issue. Sorry.

Sorry, but I never buy slippery slope arguments.

 

[WacoFan]

Thank you for proving my point. In any state those acts are listed in the penal code as battery, and if that's ok (particularly in the mind of a stressed out striker) then escalation must be ok as well. If you don't think spitting on someone is worthy of a battery charge, then try it on a cop. If you bring eggs, that shows premeditated intent to commit assault and battery, and could be a felony. I guess I'll go dig out that list that you so conveniently ignored before.

The mere fact that you ( as a union manager) feel that these ( apparently minor) crimes are ok, creates an environment where worse crimes can, and often do take place. If you cannot see that, then I must, as an outside observer, question your judgment and your clarity on this issue. Sorry.

Don't poke the BEAR!!!1!