Get my A&P?

Fixtur

Fixtur

Dunning-Kruger Expert
I'm a currently employed Part 135 pilot with a lot of downtime in the winter months.

We have an in-house Mx department, and I've been toying with the idea of volunteering there during the slow season to log Mx time and eventually take the exams for A&P.

Is this doable? Is it a dumb idea? Am I going to have to spend a ton of money on new tools?9
 
Doing this might not be for everyone, but in my opinion there’s a lot to be said for doing this. First, you may lose your medical one day, and this could be a fallback. Second, you may own your own plane, and this would allow you to do your own work on it. Third, you may be able to buy parts for your plane through your employer and enjoy whatever savings they negotiate (they did this at one of the places I worked). Finally, it opens up a lot of possibilities if you want to work for some of the Alaska lodges [become an expert fisherman and it opens up even more opportunities].

You can start this winter and accumulate some of the hours of experience you’ll need. If you enjoy it, keep going. If you don’t, then stop.

One last thing: don’t volunteer. Make them pay you a helper’s wage.
 
Fixtur said:
I'm a currently employed Part 135 pilot with a lot of downtime in the winter months.

We have an in-house Mx department, and I've been toying with the idea of volunteering there during the slow season to log Mx time and eventually take the exams for A&P.

Is this doable? Is it a dumb idea? Am I going to have to spend a ton of money on new tools?9
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It's not a dumb idea, just make sure you and the DOM or chief inspector are on the same page and understand what you're trying to do and you're both willing to keep a log regarding what you've done. They'll be the one that signs you off to go take the tests and you'll need to back that up with some sort of logbook that explains what you've done and how long you've been doing it. If you think it'll just be a fling on one winter off season you should understand that real A/P school is 1900 hours and they aren't just giving those certs away like they might've in the past. Go for it, get all of the test prep and get the written tests done, then all you'll have to do is get your hands dirty for a bit and dance for an DMI and you're good to go. Once your certified you can work on anything from a dirigible to an SST. Be careful about that, just because you can doesn't mean you should.
 
I understand you need to demonstrate (log) 30 months of experience to challenge the test, so this is definitely a two-year endeavor.

Was going to try it out for a bit first before sinking the $600 on test prep.

Thank you both for your replies.
 
Fixtur said:
I'm a currently employed Part 135 pilot with a lot of downtime in the winter months.

We have an in-house Mx department, and I've been toying with the idea of volunteering there during the slow season to log Mx time and eventually take the exams for A&P.

Is this doable? Is it a dumb idea? Am I going to have to spend a ton of money on new tools?9
Click to expand...

I'm not an A&P (yet), but it should be do-able. The A&P IA's that I've mostly worked with did exactly the same thing. I would like to get an A&P someday, in as much as I have an AMT logbook that I'm really trying to keep up to date. The experience requirement is 30 months experience for an A&P, or 18 months for one of them. I'll most likely try to get the Airframe first, which probably does make the most sense if you aren't working in a shop full time.

I'm building an RV in the garage, the FAA has changed their mind yet again and will count that time. I own an airplane, and log the time I work on that. Advice on the logbook - start logging everything now. Washing airplanes, changing tires and oil - it all counts. And that's a lot of what apprentices in shops are doing most of the time.
 
knot4u said:
It's not a dumb idea, just make sure you and the DOM or chief inspector are on the same page and understand what you're trying to do and you're both willing to keep a log regarding what you've done.
Click to expand...

Question about logging time - a lot of the work I do isn't under the supervision of an A&P (experimental construction, part 43 Appendix A exceptions, etc.) Should I have an A&P verify that, or are the airplane logbook entries good enough? I haven't been able to find much guidance on that.
 
Fixtur said:
I'm a currently employed Part 135 pilot with a lot of downtime in the winter months.

We have an in-house Mx department, and I've been toying with the idea of volunteering there during the slow season to log Mx time and eventually take the exams for A&P.

Is this doable? Is it a dumb idea? Am I going to have to spend a ton of money on new tools?9
Click to expand...
The biggest thing I would say is to be honest with yourself and with the folks you would work for/with about why you’re doing it and what you hope to get out of it. If you come across as a pilot thinking he can just slide into it easily as a back pocket career option in case of medical loss, I would advise against it, if they would even train you. If you’re interested in it because you love airplanes and aviation, and this is something you want to do for its own sake and because you find it fascinating and working with your hands is fulfilling for you, that’s a much better motivation.

Even so expect a low-level simmer of harassment until you can prove that you’re humble, able to listen, able to hold the correct end of the screwdriver, and take the • you’ll get dished out. Pilots who think they can be mechanics aren’t generally looked on too fondly and you’ll really have to prove yourself before that changes.

That’s all not to dissuade you if it’s truly something you want to do for the right reasons. I absolutely loved working on airplanes and I’m bummed that my schedule the last couple years and foreseeable future doesn’t really allow it. Troubleshooting a tough problem or wrapping up a complex install is every bit as satisfying as nailing a crosswind landing or breaking out right at mins.

Oh and you will absolutely spend a fortune on tools, but you can keep it a small fortune if you keep in mind that not EVERYTHING you own has to be Snap-On.
 
Fixtur said:
We have an in-house Mx department, and I've been toying with the idea of volunteering there during the slow season to log Mx time and eventually take the exams for A&P.
Click to expand...

How is that in house maintenance department structured ? Are they independent mechanics using their personal A&P to sign off work, or is there a part 145 repair station performing the work and signing the 8130s? If they are a 145 repair station, start talking to your PMI.

Fixtur said:
Is this doable?
Click to expand...

Very much so, but you have to fully understand what is involved. It is a long road and most give up early on once they realize it isn't an overnight endeavor. 14 CFR Part 65.77 is the reg for experience requirements, and talk to your local FSDO rep early. As that regulation is interpreted differently around the country.

For example, straight from 65.77: "At least 30 months of practical experience concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both the airframe and powerplant ratings." Is that 30 months of 40 hour work weeks, or if not, what exactly? Or some inspectors confuse this with the clock hours required of lab time during a part 147 course, which is an apples and grapefruit comparison. This is the mechanics' scenario of going to a part 61 or 141 school.

Fixtur said:
Is it a dumb idea?
Click to expand...

I mean, people still believe in the Cowboys... Having that certificate has helped me out tremendously throughout my career. You can easily bounce between flying positions, maintenance roles, even aircraft management if you desire. One friend of mine makes a comfy living off of aircraft management with theirs, and they still fly a large cabin business jet "on the side". Basically double-dipping and while having a great QoL.

Fixtur said:
Am I going to have to spend a ton of money on new tools?
Click to expand...

If your in-house maintenance is a part 145 repair station, then no. The repair station is required to have all the necessary tools on hand, and calibrated at regular intervals. Why buy a torque wrench when they have to have it in the shop? You'll probably still need a basic set of tools, but not a second mortgage's worth on the Snap-On truck. Plus, scour eBay, Craiglist, and such. People retire, or leave the business and sell their toolboxes all the time. Just keep in mind that if the locks are drilled out, then the toolbox is listed in a police report somewhere.

Feel free to send me a message if you have any questions, I'd be glad to help.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Question about logging time - a lot of the work I do isn't under the supervision of an A&P (experimental construction, part 43 Appendix A exceptions, etc.) Should I have an A&P verify that, or are the airplane logbook entries good enough? I haven't been able to find much guidance on that.
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If you're building your plane you'll qualify for a Repairmans cert, it's spelled out in the FARS...


I'm unsure how that would apply towards an A/P. Talk to your local PMI for clarification, you should already be talking to them for the Repairman cert as you build your plane. They're not likely to want to come to your garage but will be involved in getting the plane certified. VansAir Force.net probably has answers to your questions.
 
knot4u said:
If you're building your plane you'll qualify for a Repairmans cert, it's spelled out in the FARS...


I'm unsure how that would apply towards an A/P. Talk to your local PMI for clarification, you should already be talking to them for the Repairman cert as you build your plane. They're not likely to want to come to your garage but will be involved in getting the plane certified. VansAir Force.net probably has answers to your questions.
Click to expand...

This has gone back and forth over the years, but a recent change allows for builder's time to count toward the experience requirements of 14 CFR 65.77.

 
knot4u said:
If you're building your plane you'll qualify for a Repairmans cert, it's spelled out in the FARS...


I'm unsure how that would apply towards an A/P. Talk to your local PMI for clarification, you should already be talking to them for the Repairman cert as you build your plane. They're not likely to want to come to your garage but will be involved in getting the plane certified. VansAir Force.net probably has answers to your questions.
Click to expand...

For the building end of it, EAA tech counselors, and for the airworthiness cert, it is a DAR that looks at it. The building part is enough to get a repairmen cert. I already have A&P's that I trust check my work though. For airplane construction, a lot of A&Ps don't do fabrication work much, so I totally do agree that VAF and other builders, especially ones that have A&Ps are a big help.

My question was more along the lines of how to log that time in a way that the FSDO would like when I show them a log book. Ultimately, that's who needs to be happy with it to take the A&P written tests. I've just been putting the work and time in an ASA AMT logbook, with an A&P # for certificated airplanes, and my name for experimental/owner maintenance work.
 
CFI A&P said:
This has gone back and forth over the years, but a recent change allows for builder's time to count toward the experience requirements of 14 CFR 65.77.

Click to expand...

The most common sense thing the FAA has done in years. Also, the Coleal letter [1]. While I don't test the limits of it, it does make me feel better about looking into something that doesn't look right on my airplane. (It basically says, you can check tire pressure even though part 43 appendix A pretty clearly says you can't, and BTW, on light GA aircraft, anything that only involves a few non-structural screws is fine too.)

[1]https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...bardier Learjet_2009_Legal_Interpretation.pdf
 
drunkenbeagle said:
For the building end of it, EAA tech counselors, and for the airworthiness cert, it is a DAR that looks at it. The building part is enough to get a repairmen cert. I already have A&P's that I trust check my work though. For airplane construction, a lot of A&Ps don't do fabrication work much, so I totally do agree that VAF and other builders, especially ones that have A&Ps are a big help.

My question was more along the lines of how to log that time in a way that the FSDO would like when I show them a log book. Ultimately, that's who needs to be happy with it to take the A&P written tests. I've just been putting the work and time in an ASA AMT logbook, with an A&P # for certificated airplanes, and my name for experimental/owner maintenance work.
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I don't know? You can build the airplane in your garage, take many photos and keep a very meticulous logbook but without someone who the FAA recognizes as having some sort of qualification who's willing to be liable and sign for your work I don't know how to apply it. I'm not trying to rain on your parade but an A/P doesn't have endorsements and type ratings like a pilots cert. Why do you want an A/P? With the Repairmen cert you'll earn building your airplane you'll be free to do all of the MX on it, are you planning on doing more with that cert? Are you going to sign off condition inspections for your EAA buddies that didn't build their Velocity with your experience being completely based on on building one of Vans offerings? I'm not trying to disparage your ambition but IMHO the A/P cert should not be easy to get.
 
knot4u said:
I don't know? You can build the airplane in your garage, take many photos and keep a very meticulous logbook but without someone who the FAA recognizes as having some sort of qualification who's willing to be liable and sign for your work I don't know how to apply it. I'm not trying to rain on your parade but an A/P doesn't have endorsements and type ratings like a pilots cert. Why do you want an A/P? With the Repairmen cert you'll earn building your airplane you'll be free to do all of the MX on it, are you planning on doing more with that cert?
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As I understand it, you are free to do all of the MX on experimentals whether you built them or not, only the condition inspection requires an A&P or repairmen cert. For a light sport experimental, it only takes a 2 day class to get a repairman cert for an aircraft you own but didn't build.

I already have a builders log for the experimental, an AMT log for stuff an A&P supervises, and another log for owner preventative maintenance. It's all work I'm doing anyway, so I might as well keep track of it.
 
knot4u said:
I don't know? You can build the airplane in your garage, take many photos and keep a very meticulous logbook but without someone who the FAA recognizes as having some sort of qualification who's willing to be liable and sign for your work I don't know how to apply it. I'm not trying to rain on your parade but an A/P doesn't have endorsements and type ratings like a pilots cert. Why do you want an A/P? With the Repairmen cert you'll earn building your airplane you'll be free to do all of the MX on it, are you planning on doing more with that cert? Are you going to sign off condition inspections for your EAA buddies that didn't build their Velocity with your experience being completely based on on building one of Vans offerings? I'm not trying to disparage your ambition but IMHO the A/P cert should not be easy to get.
Click to expand...

Yes, that’s exactly how it works. The number of condition inspections I’ve signed off far exceeds the number of aircraft I’ve built. The onus is due diligence before taking on that liability.

The FAA realizes that we need more technicians, allowing home builders a pathway to getting their certificates is one way to help create more A&Ps. Sure, Bakers, or ERAU won’t like losing potential students but overall it is a good thing for the industry.
 
CFI A&P said:
Yes, that’s exactly how it works. The number of condition inspections I’ve signed off far exceeds the number of aircraft I’ve built. The onus is due diligence before taking on that liability.

The FAA realizes that we need more technicians, allowing home builders a pathway to getting their certificates is one way to help create more A&Ps. Sure, Bakers, or ERAU won’t like losing potential students but overall it is a good thing for the industry.
Click to expand...
I attended what was once considered a top tier A/P school (Glendale Community College circa '89-'93). I did not track my hours spent in class or how proficient I was at doing any number of things, that was up to the instructors. It was full time school, 8-3 M-F, 16 units per semester. During that time I also had a full time job. I learned a lot of things that I never used, but it built a solid base. I was told by one of my instructors that despite their best efforts the best they could offer was "a license to learn" and after 4 semesters of full time school I'd still be an inexperienced (although very smart) idiot out in the real world. He was absolutely correct. I've seen people obtain their A/P cert utilizing other methods and I've always wondered how pilots would consider someone who never put in the time and effort.
 
knot4u said:
I've seen people obtain their A/P cert utilizing other methods and I've always wondered how pilots would consider someone who never put in the time and effort.
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Well, that's pretty much why I want an to be an A&P. Often I'm not satisfied with the quality of work I see, and am mostly powerless to do much about it. Especially in electrical and radio systems. (My background is electrical engineering, so I am probably seeing RF issues that most A&Ps don't.)
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Well, that's pretty much why I want an to be an A&P. Often I'm not satisfied with the quality of work I see, and am mostly powerless to do much about it. Especially in electrical and radio systems. (My background is electrical engineering, so I am probably seeing RF issues that most A&Ps don't.)
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Then get an FCC cert, you'll find plenty of work. But that's not what you want is it?
 
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