get much free time?

[hereitcomes]

Hi all,
I've been asking around to get a better idea of a couple questions:

1. How much free time do ATCs actually have to pursue outside interests? I've heard of some people launching careers on the side, even
while working full-time as controllers, and having plenty of time for traveling... which almost sounded too good to be true.
2. What's the approximate male-female ratio and representation
of minorities in the workforce?

 

[magnetic907]

good point. when i heard about this job someone sent me an email , talking about there daughter is age 28 making 100,000 a year and had time to pursue a side business. (wonder if its true or not.. )being an air traffic controller great opportunity stuff like that. very interesting email. not complaining just curious!.:nana2:

 

[Fox Xray]

Without OT and prior to the IWR's there was more free time. I work a 221 schedule as do most controllers. Lets say your days off are Wednesday Thursday. You would work nights (3-11) on Friday and Saturday, then days (7-3) on Sunday and Monday, and last, Monday night for Tuesday you would work a mid (11-7). So ... Tuesday morning you would come off the mid and not have to be back at work till Friday at 3. That is a good amount of free time. Bang up sick on Friday and you can take a nice vacation ...

What happens now is with the scheduled 6 day weeks one of your days off becomes an OT, and since the scheduler is a management tool they pretty much screw you. 9 out of 10 times it's a Thursday evening OT shift or something that does not flow well.

One thing we can do is swap shifts. Lets say I got assigned a Thursday evening shift, and someone else has a day but wants a night. We can swap shifts.

Without OT the 221 schedule is really nice and gives a lot of free time away from work. With OT it's still not a bad schedule but the free time is not as good.

Hope the info helps.

 

[Livestrg05]

Without OT and prior to the IWR's there was more free time. I work a 221 schedule as do most controllers. Lets say your days off are Wednesday Thursday. You would work nights (3-11) on Friday and Saturday, then days (7-3) on Sunday and Monday, and last, Monday night for Tuesday you would work a mid (11-7). So ... Tuesday morning you would come off the mid and not have to be back at work till Friday at 3. That is a good amount of free time. Bang up sick on Friday and you can take a nice vacation ...

What happens now is with the scheduled 6 day weeks one of your days off becomes an OT, and since the scheduler is a management tool they pretty much screw you. 9 out of 10 times it's a Thursday evening OT shift or something that does not flow well.

One thing we can do is swap shifts. Lets say I got assigned a Thursday evening shift, and someone else has a day but wants a night. We can swap shifts.

Without OT the 221 schedule is really nice and gives a lot of free time away from work. With OT it's still not a bad schedule but the free time is not as good.

Hope the info helps.

So, I guess would it be fair to say the more seniority you have at your location, the better shifts you get and better days off or does it really not matter?

 

[RetiredATLATC]

So, I guess would it be fair to say the more seniority you have at your location, the better shifts you get and better days off or does it really not matter?

You may get better days off, actually DAY off, but you will be exhausted and do nothing but sleep and TRY to catch up on everything you've let go all week.
There are no better shifts and it takes a GREAT toll on your psyche and body. I have Thur-Fri. off. I work OT EVERY Friday, 1600-2400 Sat., 1530-2330 Sun., !500-2300 Mon., 1400-2200 Tues., and 11-7 on Wed.(sometimes 1400-2200 on Wed.) So of at 10PM on Wed. night and back to work Fri. at Noonish. EVERY WEEK.

CJ @ A80:bandit:

 

[dgilday]

You may get better days off, actually DAY off, but you will be exhausted and do nothing but sleep and TRY to catch up on everything you've let go all week.
There are no better shifts and it takes a GREAT toll on your psyche and body. I have Thur-Fri. off. I work OT EVERY Friday, 1600-2400 Sat., 1530-2330 Sun., !500-2300 Mon., 1400-2200 Tues., and 11-7 on Wed.(sometimes 1400-2200 on Wed.) So of at 10PM on Wed. night and back to work Fri. at Noonish. EVERY WEEK.

CJ @ A80:bandit:

Spoiled.....

No offense, but I think the majority of the ATC workforce has no idea how lucky they really are. I've worked Restaurant and Retail since I was 18, and working 12-16 hour days, 6-7 days per week is not uncommon. When I hear that folks are complaining about working 8 hour days, it makes me wonder if they realize that the majority of society would kill to have a job like that.

So, rather than complain, be thankful that you have a high-paying, stable job that allows you to also pursue other options while remaining employed.

If you are wondering, I am not currently a member of the workforce, however I grew up with both parents being Controllers. I understand the workload that is upon you, and the stress that comes with the job. I'm just tired of hearing that the FAA is working you to the bone, when in reality, things could be MUCH worse.

Dave

 

[ATC Vector]

Spoiled.....

No offense, but I think the majority of the ATC workforce has no idea how lucky they really are. I've worked Restaurant and Retail since I was 18, and working 12-16 hour days, 6-7 days per week is not uncommon. When I hear that folks are complaining about working 8 hour days, it makes me wonder if they realize that the majority of society would kill to have a job like that.

So, rather than complain, be thankful that you have a high-paying, stable job that allows you to also pursue other options while remaining employed.

If you are wondering, I am not currently a member of the workforce, however I grew up with both parents being Controllers. I understand the workload that is upon you, and the stress that comes with the job. I'm just tired of hearing that the FAA is working you to the bone, when in reality, things could be MUCH worse.

Dave

Dave,

The level of responsibility one has working in a restaurant or retail store does not even compare to the responsibility an air traffic controller has. Mistakes do not injure or kill people on a daily basis in those industries; whereas it only takes a SINGLE mistake for a controller to cost the lives of 1,000 people.

Working 10 hour days, six days a week for several months or years will definitely have a negative toll on one's body. The consequences can be deadly.

Air Traffic Control is a profession that carries a certain level of prestige and expectation, just like an airline pilot or surgeon. This profession requires skills and composure that only a fraction of individuals exhibit.

To say that controllers have no right to complain when their salaries are cut by 30%, overtime mandated on a daily basis, is a bit ignorant.

 

[dgilday]

Dave,

The level of responsibility one has working in a restaurant or retail store does not even compare to the responsibility an air traffic controller has. Mistakes do not injure or kill people on a daily basis in those industries; whereas it only takes a SINGLE mistake for a controller to cost the lives of 1,000 people.

Working 10 hour days, six days a week for several months or years will definitely have a negative toll on one's body. The consequences can be deadly.

Air Traffic Control is a profession that carries a certain level of prestige and expectation, just like an airline pilot or surgeon. This profession requires skills and composure that only a fraction of individuals exhibit.

To say that controllers have no right to complain when their salaries are cut by 30%, overtime mandated on a daily basis, is a bit ignorant.

Ignorant? I'm currently working with a company that is about to lay-off over 45% of their workforce. You tell me, what should I do? I'd love to take a page out of your book. Hey, I'll tell you what....I'll call my boss, tell him exactly what I think about the state of the company, and what I plan on doing after they force me out. That should go over well, dont you think? OF COURSE IT WONT, I'll be fired on the spot, thrown out the door, no more benefits, not more vacation....nothing.... So I ask you, is what you are doing any different? Nope. You'll continue to complain about things, to supervisors, union reps & co-workers without any reprocussions to worry about. You'll take your $150k/year job, knowing that in the "real world" you'd only be making $75k Max.

You're pay has been cut, you're working more hours than usual, you've been forced to wear a tie to work. Well guess what, that is exactly what the rest of us are doing out in the "Real World". All of us have bosses that we dont like, and rules imposed that we dont agree with. If you don't like it, quit whining or leave!

I never stated your job was insignificant or undeserving of the pay that you recieve. I understand that your job is stressful, and I understand that pressure that you put on your shoulders each and every day. I hate to even compare the work that I have done in the restaurant as to the work you do in the center, however, don't presume that my job is as much of a cake walk (no-pun intended) as you suggest. Lives are not at stake every single day, but until you live a day in my shoes, and try to meet the expectations I set for myself, don't assume that your the only one with pressure on your shoulders. 90-100 hour workweeks are not uncommon for mid-level management, and in fact I've worked as much as 120. Actually its encouraged in order to move-up the preverbial ladder. What would you say if your sup asked you to work 100 hours next week? What would your family say?

The mindset of the workforce is that the government somehow "owes" you for the job that you do each day. The agency is full of disgruntled employees, each willing to put their resignation in on a daily basis. If you truly beleive the grass is greener, by all means give it a shot! Most of the controllers I have met have no clue that they have fallen into a goldmine! In the meantime, enjoy your job, be thankful that you found it. For those of us that are lucky enough to wear the badge someday, I can only hope that we bring a different mindset and mentality to the agency, as it is desperately needed.

Dave

 

[RetiredATLATC]

Ignorant? I'm currently working with a company that is about to lay-off over 45% of their workforce. You tell me, what should I do? I'd love to take a page out of your book. Hey, I'll tell you what....I'll call my boss, tell him exactly what I think about the state of the company, and what I plan on doing after they force me out. That should go over well, dont you think? OF COURSE IT WONT, I'll be fired on the spot, thrown out the door, no more benefits, not more vacation....nothing.... So I ask you, is what you are doing any different? Nope. You'll continue to complain about things, to supervisors, union reps & co-workers without any reprocussions to worry about. You'll take your $150k/year job, knowing that in the "real world" you'd only be making $75k Max.

You're pay has been cut, you're working more hours than usual, you've been forced to wear a tie to work. Well guess what, that is exactly what the rest of us are doing out in the "Real World". All of us have bosses that we dont like, and rules imposed that we dont agree with. If you don't like it, quit whining or leave!

I never stated your job was insignificant or undeserving of the pay that you recieve. I understand that your job is stressful, and I understand that pressure that you put on your shoulders each and every day. I hate to even compare the work that I have done in the restaurant as to the work you do in the center, however, don't presume that my job is as much of a cake walk (no-pun intended) as you suggest. Lives are not at stake every single day, but until you live a day in my shoes, and try to meet the expectations I set for myself, don't assume that your the only one with pressure on your shoulders. 90-100 hour workweeks are not uncommon for mid-level management, and in fact I've worked as much as 120. Actually its encouraged in order to move-up the preverbial ladder. What would you say if your sup asked you to work 100 hours next week? What would your family say?

The mindset of the workforce is that the government somehow "owes" you for the job that you do each day. The agency is full of disgruntled employees, each willing to put their resignation in on a daily basis. If you truly beleive the grass is greener, by all means give it a shot! Most of the controllers I have met have no clue that they have fallen into a goldmine! In the meantime, enjoy your job, be thankful that you found it. For those of us that are lucky enough to wear the badge someday, I can only hope that we bring a different mindset and mentality to the agency, as it is desperately needed.

Dave

Dave,

The question was asked whether we get much free time....not "what rant does Dave have? 6 days a week, 10 hours a day every week. Putting aircraft 2.5 miles apart hours on end...how in the hell does this even remotely relate to your retail jobs. 100 hours a week next week...people would DIE..not get the wrong food order. Until you become one don't add your two cents. Vacation....what's that? Last year I had a total 48 days off. All Holiday canceled.
Idiot:crazy:

 

[dgilday]

Dave,

The question was asked whether we get much free time....not "what rant does Dave have? 6 days a week, 10 hours a day every week. Putting aircraft 2.5 miles apart hours on end...how in the hell does this even remotely relate to your retail jobs. 100 hours a week next week...people would DIE..not get the wrong food order. Until you become one don't add your two cents. Vacation....what's that? Last year I had a total 48 days off. All Holiday canceled.
Idiot:crazy:

Wouldn't expect anything less..... Are you really that stubborn? :banghead:

Dave

 

[Fox Xray]

Dave... angry at what other people make or do is not a good way to go through life, for some reason you sound very bitter. You seem to have your mind made up and ATLTRACON really explained things very well so I won't debate this further, it's off topic as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Fox Xray]

So, I guess would it be fair to say the more seniority you have at your location, the better shifts you get and better days off or does it really not matter?

Yes... prior to the IWR's the union and management would sit down and work out schedules for the coming year. Following an agreed upon schedule we would bid in seniority order. Since the IWR's management puts out a schedule that is bid on. This past year management screwed it up so badly, it's unbalanced for traffic flows so there is 2 to 3 more times OT compared to previous years.

The more seniority the more choices you have in choosing a schedule.

 

[ATC Vector]

Ignorant? I'm currently working with a company that is about to lay-off over 45% of their workforce. You tell me, what should I do? I'd love to take a page out of your book. Hey, I'll tell you what....I'll call my boss, tell him exactly what I think about the state of the company, and what I plan on doing after they force me out. That should go over well, dont you think? OF COURSE IT WONT, I'll be fired on the spot, thrown out the door, no more benefits, not more vacation....nothing.... So I ask you, is what you are doing any different? Nope. You'll continue to complain about things, to supervisors, union reps & co-workers without any reprocussions to worry about. You'll take your $150k/year job, knowing that in the "real world" you'd only be making $75k Max.

You're pay has been cut, you're working more hours than usual, you've been forced to wear a tie to work. Well guess what, that is exactly what the rest of us are doing out in the "Real World". All of us have bosses that we dont like, and rules imposed that we dont agree with. If you don't like it, quit whining or leave!

I never stated your job was insignificant or undeserving of the pay that you recieve. I understand that your job is stressful, and I understand that pressure that you put on your shoulders each and every day. I hate to even compare the work that I have done in the restaurant as to the work you do in the center, however, don't presume that my job is as much of a cake walk (no-pun intended) as you suggest. Lives are not at stake every single day, but until you live a day in my shoes, and try to meet the expectations I set for myself, don't assume that your the only one with pressure on your shoulders. 90-100 hour workweeks are not uncommon for mid-level management, and in fact I've worked as much as 120. Actually its encouraged in order to move-up the preverbial ladder. What would you say if your sup asked you to work 100 hours next week? What would your family say?

The mindset of the workforce is that the government somehow "owes" you for the job that you do each day. The agency is full of disgruntled employees, each willing to put their resignation in on a daily basis. If you truly beleive the grass is greener, by all means give it a shot! Most of the controllers I have met have no clue that they have fallen into a goldmine! In the meantime, enjoy your job, be thankful that you found it. For those of us that are lucky enough to wear the badge someday, I can only hope that we bring a different mindset and mentality to the agency, as it is desperately needed.

Dave

Dave,

I do not understand what you are trying to convey in your first paragraph. "Is what you're doing any different?" What does that mean?

$150,000 salary? Good luck getting to that point as a controller, even in a Level 12 facility.

My favorite is the "real world." Tell me, what is the real world like exactly? I wonder in what world controllers are living in right now.

I would say most people who whine on a daily basis at their job end up moving on sooner rather than later. Granted, they may continue their wihining somewhere else. In that case, that is more an issue of personality disorder than anything else. In a restaurant, or retail, you have the option of going somewhere else...there are thousands of opportunities. For someone who loves controlling air traffic, his/her options are limited.

What reaction do you suggest controllers to exhibit? "Thank you for lowering my salary by 30%, making me work 10-hour days for six consecutive days, declining my holiday requests; I have been waiting for such new benefits for so long! My family and I graciously appreciate your generosity."

Does the fact that you work 100-120 hours make it reasonable and safe for every single profession in existence? Do a NEWS search on google daily. Chances are, today another controller was blamed for a serious near-miss.

No, the grass is not greener on the other side. You create your own environment.

 

[dgilday]

Dave... angry at what other people make or do is not a good way to go through life, for some reason you sound very bitter. You seem to have your mind made up and ATLTRACON really explained things very well so I won't debate this further, it's off topic as far as I'm concerned.

Honestly, I'm not angry or bitter at all, just frustrated by reading message board after message board and thread after thread of the same complaints.

Am I wrong in my generalization of the workforce? If so, please let me know. But in my experience, this is reality. ATLTRACON is trying his best to explain himself, but honestly I dont see his rationale.

I'm thankful that I am able to get up every morning, and I have a job that pays very well. It is frustrating to see individuals such as ATLTRACON continue to complain about how he is treated at his center. As far I know, there are several international opportunities & private sector opportunities that will allow you to fullfill your ATC passion while spareing the rest of the workforce of your rhetoric.

Dave

 

[RetiredATLATC]

Honestly, I'm not angry or bitter at all, just frustrated by reading message board after message board and thread after thread of the same complaints.

Am I wrong in my generalization of the workforce? If so, please let me know. But in my experience, this is reality. ATLTRACON is trying his best to explain himself, but honestly I dont see his rationale.

I'm thankful that I am able to get up every morning, and I have a job that pays very well. It is frustrating to see individuals such as ATLTRACON continue to complain about how he is treated at his center. As far I know, there are several international opportunities & private sector opportunities that will allow you to fullfill your ATC passion while spareing the rest of the workforce of your rhetoric.

Dave

ATL TRACON is just that, a TRACON (Terminal Radar Approach Control) NOT a center. You obviously have very little knowledge of what you speak Comrade.
There is no rationale about it, we were asked about free time a I responded.
I have to go to sleep now as I worked until 2:30 today and have to be back to work a 10:25 tonight. What will I do with my free time.

Go fly one of your kites, cause you know nothing about ATC and aviation.

 

[Fox Xray]

Honestly, I'm not angry or bitter at all, just frustrated by reading message board after message board and thread after thread of the same complaints.

Am I wrong in my generalization of the workforce? If so, please let me know. But in my experience, this is reality. ATLTRACON is trying his best to explain himself, but honestly I dont see his rationale.

I'm thankful that I am able to get up every morning, and I have a job that pays very well. It is frustrating to see individuals such as ATLTRACON continue to complain about how he is treated at his center. As far I know, there are several international opportunities & private sector opportunities that will allow you to fullfill your ATC passion while spareing the rest of the workforce of your rhetoric.

Dave

There is a bitter tone to your posts... you hijacked a thread where a person wanted to know about controller schedules and made it about what you do and make vs. what we do and make as controllers. You're comparing apples and oranges. If I didn't know any better I would think you were an FAA lackey looking to stir the pot.

To put it in simple terms we as controllers are a highly skilled trade, not a lot of people can do this trade well, especially at the busier places like a level 12 facility. I work at a busy level 12 center and in the past 8-10 years I have seen close to 100 people come to my area of specialization and not make it. They came from all walks of life and education but could not control traffic, how many other jobs loose that many candidates ? With a wash out rate that high you have to pay people well not only to retain the ones you have but attract as many applicants as possible. Read this board a bit, see how many people with diverse aviation backgrounds who have an understanding of what controllers do have decided to turn the job down because the compensation is no longer equal to the sacrifices.

 

[ATC wannabe]

Hey Fox Xray thanks for trying to get this back on topic. Just one more post of topic.

ATLTRACON, I actually live really close to the Atlanta Tracon and my dad who is AF side worked at the facility and basically warned me that maybe I should avoid going to such high level busy facility, if I want to be successful and get certified in my lifetime because you guys are always JAMMED with traffic and extremely short staffed and overworked. So to you guys that are already in the trenches thanks for what you do and GOOD LUCK keeping it duct taped, chewing gummed and paper clipped together because I know it is extremely difficult right now.

 

[ATC RET 2003]

Ahhhhh... back to the questions!

1. How much free time do ATCs actually have to pursue outside interests? I've heard of some people launching careers on the side, even while working full-time as controllers, and having plenty of time for traveling... which almost sounded too good to be true.

2. What's the approximate male-female ratio and representation of minorities in the workforce?

Fox Xray answered question #1 quite well based on a 2-2-1, which I also spent the bulk of my career working. I also worked an AWS (or compressed) schedule for several years, though it isn't likely to be seen again anytime soon. It was a 2-1-2-2, which was like a 2-2-1 with an extra day off thrown into the middle of the week.

I did do a stretch of scheduled 6-day weeks right after the strike, but never the amount that CJ and others are doing these days. I agree with CJ that, under those circumstances, almost all of your "free time" is spent getting ready for the next shift... I certainly found that to be true for me.

The bottom line seems to be that any schedule that doesn't involve OT will usually allow enough time for outside interests.

As far as people launching careers on the side, I know many who did. There may also have been many more who did but I wasn't aware of it. However, bringing your "other career" into the facility can put you into disfavor with your coworkers and your employer. I saw both happen.

I do not know the answer to question #2 ... maybe the FAA website has some info about it.

 

[PilotChip]

Coming from the small tower perspective once again.....

Here at my first small tower, it's 5 on 2 off - mine used to be mon/tue now they are tue/wed.

We don't even get to see the light of day - "day" being overtime - because i guess we have the option of earning credit hours instead of getting paid OT... Maybe it's mandatory to get hours instead of actual OT pay. or maybe it's mgmt's choice?

Anyway, I feel for the 6-dayers; i know a couple of them in SoCal Apc and I always thought the money would be nice, but the constant workload doesn't make it worth it, in their opinion.

 

[hereitcomes]

good point. when i heard about this job someone sent me an email , talking about there daughter is age 28 making 100,000 a year and had time to pursue a side business. (wonder if its true or not.. )being an air traffic controller great opportunity stuff like that. very interesting email. not complaining just curious!.:nana2:

I think I received the EXACT same email last year! (28 years old, 100k in 3 years, etc.) Interesting is for sure.

I don't know... the more I read here and elsewhere, I am leaning towards declining the offer, even though I was so enthused after my interview and so sure I would take it. It seems like there will be no timely resolution with the FAA....