General Questions Regarding USAF Flying

scoobs said:
The big question is flying in the military as bad as baseops puts it? If you compare forums like airwarriors to baseops the navy/marine side sounds happier. Maybe thats just the type of people on each forum.
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You seem to have been around flying forums long enough to see that they generally collect people who want to bitch about things, so they're rarely a good reflection of the overall actual attitude of a macro group of aviators.

That being said, I have to say that the current mojo amongst the USAF pilot group is more morose currently than I think I have seen at any time in the last 10-15 years. There really are a lot of upset folks based on what has been happening in the USAF, and many are planning on separating at the first possible opportunity. Baseops probably represents a more vocal minority than actually exists in the actual USAF pilot population, but I think many of the opinions expressed there are representative of what I hear out on the line over the last several years.
 
Hacker15e said:
Additionally, there has been a perceptible cultural shift in the USAF over the last 6-9 years. The bizarre part which defies explanation is that it's a shift away from focus on the mission, and toward a lot of little things that don't matter in the grand scheme of mission accomplishment. It's probably best summarized as "compliance is more important than achievement".
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Hacker, that's probably the best explanation for the current atmosphere I've heard yet. I've been in for almost 11 years and the AF I'm in now is a very different animal than the one I joined back in '01. I guess that's what happens to a service with 10+ years of active fighting on top of another 10 years of "routine" combat ops like Northern/Southern Watch. The actual warfighters have either moved up or moved on and the remaining "careerists" have become focused on maintaining the sanctity of the Church of the Air Force, rather than the service's ability to fight and win wars.

To the OP: Here's my take on "Officer first, Pilot second". Your job as a pilot is to be the very best at operating your particular aircraft as you can be. There's more out there than you'll ever be able to know, but you should try as hard as possible to have as wide and as deep a knowledge base as you can. All of your additional duties and back office jobs are going to do their best get in the way of that. Some would say that being a good officer means getting the office work done at the expense of being an expert in your aircraft. The bottom line is that no one has been killed because you didn't stock the snack bar or review all the training folders. People have been killed by pilots distracted by a myriad of office and personal crap. Being a good officer means knowing when to focus on one aspect over the other so that you can be a good pilot. One compliments the other. There is no "first, then". You're both at all times.
 
Jones14 said:
I want to start off by admitting that I may be getting ahead of myself with some of these questions, I'm aware of it. This whole thread may be full of some things I shouldn't quite admit, but I'm just looking for the straight and skinny on a few things.

I'm in the process of applying for OTS and eventually UPT for the Air Force. I have taken the AFOQT and am now anxiously awaiting my results. The rest of my items have been submitted to my OR. The board meets in August, so it's the waiting game. I've been battling a few thoughts that he planted in my brain the last time we spoke. Putting all of the "Officer over Pilot" stuff aside for right now, he asked me what has drawn me to apply for a commission. I answered becoming a pilot.

A little later, he was telling me a few situations recently where very qualified people applied solely for a pilot position, and were not selected. Alluding to the fact that you may seem selfish in the eyes of the board for not being flexible to the needs of the Military. He also went on to say that if you apply Pilot #1, Nav #2 and are offered a Nav slot, then decline the offer, you might as well go kick rocks. Maybe I got it all wrong. After all, if you apply solely pilot, and there's no seats to fill then you're out of luck.

So there's the main issue. Like so many others, flying is "in my blood," or whatever cliche you want to use. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket working towards my civilian CPL/Multi for the last three years, while working full time as an airline mechanic. I feel like I'm very passionate and dedicated to making this goal happen. I do want to be flexible towards the needs of the military, and in doing so it will open more doors for a commission.

The second set of questions comes into play about being a Navigator. I know very little about the role of the Nav, beyond what is obvious. If you spent 20 years serving as a Nav, what options are available to you in the civilian aviation world? (See, getting ahead of myself) Do Nav's log time similarly to the Pilots? For instance, would _____ Airlines look at you the same? I'm honestly not thinking that the military is just a stepping stone to some major airline. That's so backwards, believe me I work for one.

Anyway, these questions are kind of stemming from what I imagine a Nav riding backseat in an F-15 would do. What about a Nav in a C-17 or C-130? I'm certainly not opposed to being "just a Nav." That's ridiculous, but I don't want to put it on my application in hopes of seeming "flixible." I need an Air Force Navigator 101 course here, links are cool too.

Something else I've been curious about for a long time is the different missions that each airframe carries out. For instance, I've read some really great stories about C-130 pilots landing on dirt strips in Africa while flying in supplies to the locals. Basically camping out and fending for themselves before their return trip. That's like pure adventure. Aviation porn. It would be very interesting to read about the varied missions of each aircraft, and formulate my own direction to shoot for. Of course, only if I get a shot at a flying career with the military.

Again, I know these are not really the topics I should be focused on at the moment. I don't want to be ridiculed or anything (it's a chat forum, bombs away!). I'm just a new guy that's purely interested in learning about what you do... and maybe fulfilling some of my own curiosity.
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I had to make a similar decision not too long ago. I decided to apply for both Pilot and CSO... thought a long time about it. I've been flying as a pilot since I was 16 and have a decent amount of hours. My GPA sucked, had been arrested before (for a potato gun) along with a few other negative things....and the AF needed a lot of CSOs during my board, so I was selected for CSO. It was a little bit of a kick in the junk at first... but in all reality, I'm pretty lucky. Anyone can say what they want about being a nav... or how great they are because they were selected for pilot. Serving was something I wanted to do first and foremost... Nav or not... even to be an officer is a privilege. Just a personal choice I guess. I'm about to commission and there are a lot of good dudes heading down to CSO school with me (surprisingly, our class has a lot of high time guys as CSOs and low time guys as pilots)

As far as what to do when you get out... I don't know, I'm not even looking at that or care too much at this point. There are several options very unique to what I was involved in before. If you do make a decision to jump in... there are a lot of good ole crusty mentor types out there to shed some light on what's happening when you're in training.
 
As an example of how f-'d up the USAF is, they're apparently letting OTs have internet access and post on forums while they're still in OTS!!! WTFO?!
 
Hacker15e said:
As an example of how f-'d up the USAF is, they're apparently letting OTs have internet access and post on forums while they're still in OTS!!! WTFO?!
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It's part of my "Cultural Awareness Training" so I can be less ethnocentric and more accepting of the other cultures
 
scoobs said:
How difficult is it to switch from nav to pilot down the road?
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I couldn't tell you odds, but I now several guys wearing two sets of wings. It's easier than getting hired off the street, but there's no guarantees.
 
scoobs said:
How difficult is it to switch from nav to pilot down the road?
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As with everything, "it depends". It depends on a whole lot of factors that you have no control over, unfortunately.

Yes, there are opportunities to do it. It's still very competitive.
 
My 2 cents as an AFRC fighter LT...

At least at my base, guard/reserve is pretty much turning into active duty. "TFI" is a mess here - I can't vouch for other bases. I don't have the SA to speak intelligently about it since I've only been in for 3 years and only at my base since January, but discontent with the status quo is wide sweeping. Apart from the pain of "integrating with active duty," our jets suck, maintenance can't seem to keep up, and most guys are flying once or twice a week. Dudes are still working long days, which I really cannot figure out since we're flying 4 turn 4 most days.

Like others wiser than me have said, the focus seems to be shifting rapidly away from the mission. To me the "officer first" thing is really misunderstood. We are pilots. It took 3 years for me just to show up for MQT. I've got a long ways to go until I'm a flight lead and IP. Sorry to the chiefs out there if my uniform is not in regs or if I bitch about spending all day doing paperwork and trying to get paid from finance when I should be in the vault learning or heaven forbid flying, but at the end of the day it is my ass on the line and my job to execute our tactics when the time comes to kill people and save American lives. As it turns out, that's a hefty challenge in a 4th gen aircraft with 6900 hours against today's threats. Being a good stand eval guy or scheduler helps out, but has very little to do with the mission, requires limited tactical knowledge, and could probably be accomplished by a well trained GS-9. A good "officer" in my shoes should be able to get bombs on target on time and come home with the rest of my flight.

I'm giving you a vision through a soda straw because my situation as a reservist fighter pilot is only one of a million avenues you can explore on active duty or the guard/reserve. But on my side of the house it definitely seems like guys are not flying nearly enough and not receiving much love from senior leadership/congress. As for me...I love the flying when it happens and am thrilled to be here, but I can guarantee you when my 3 years of orders are up and I transition to a traditional reservist, I'm going to have my airline application tight and be looking at all available options.
 
Springer said:
Ask Chuck DeBellevue. He washed out of UPT and became a F-4 WSO. It took being an ace to get approval to go back to UPT. He was in the class behind me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_B._DeBellevue

In the above link it mentions another F-4 WSO, Roger Locher, that went to UPT after being a Nav. He was in my class and graduated #1.
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Unfortunately, the opportunities those guys had in the 1970s have little to do with the process and opportunities available today. It's not impossible by any stretch right now; in fact, I see a one or two re-tread Navs coming through T-38s at Vance every couple of classes. It's not that rare at all.

The process of selecting pilots from active duty, as well as the number of available slots, the demand for those slots, and rules governing who and when Navs can apply have all changed just in the little time that I've been around the block, so it's tough to put your finger on the exact chances of this happening for any one individual.

Opportunity varies year-to-year depending on how many slots are available at SUPT for guys from active duty. Those numbers are governed by what the overall pilot production numbers are going to be for that year compared to the number of bodies that the commissioning sources are providing that year.

Ultimately, it is a board selection process, where an application that consists of some objective data (PCSM score, civilian flight hours and ratings, AFOQT scores) and a lot of subjective data (your duty performance as a Nav, medals, deployments, etc). How you stack up has everything to do with how many other guys apply and what the quality of those applicants is. Sometimes it is highly competitive and sometimes it's not -- there's really no way to know beforehand.

A couple years ago my Squadron Commander sat as part of the Active Duty UPT Selection Board, and I posted notes from his presentation he made to the WSOs in my squadron. You'll be able to get a good handle on how it looked in 2008 here:

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12904-active-duty-upt-board-selection-brief/

In addition, 17 years ago when I was trying to get into SUPT as an active duty Lieutenant, I collected copies of every Form 215 that I could get my hands on from guys who had been selected. Here's a PDF of all of those forms:

http://www.wantscheck.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=qqnvQCs7A48=&tabid=66&mid=623
 
Hacker15e said:
In addition, 17 years ago when I was trying to get into SUPT as an active duty Lieutenant, I collected copies of every Form 215 that I could get my hands on from guys who had been selected. Here's a PDF of all of those forms:
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Very smart move. Very impressive Form 215's!! Which one was yours? :-)
 
I was in the room when the same commander briefed Hacker a few years ago. The picture of the needs of the AF has changed quite a bit since 2008. The last active duty board needed RPA operators, CSOs, and pilots at roughly a 5/4/2 ratio. We've stabilized the RC-12 and U-28 communities while downsizing the number of fighters. That all drives a reduced need for pilots. At the same time, this will be the first year that we need more RPA operators than pilots. If you're active duty and applying to the rated board, expect competition to go to UPT to be very tough. At the same time, you may be offered a RPA or CSO job that you weren't expecting.
 
scoobs said:
How difficult is it to switch from nav to pilot down the road?
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Throwing this out there, but there's a class a few in front of me that has 6 prior navs in it. However as you can imagine this is highly unusual.
 
You have to look post-military as well. The airlines are definitely not like they used to be and corporate jobs are hit or miss.

Do you really want to be in the military for 10/20 years and then go to the airlines and be gone 18 days out of the month for a few years? or go to a corporate job that requires you to be available 24/7? I saw pilots getting out and going to the bottom of the seniority list...as much as I wanted to serve, fly for the military, it just wasn't worth the huge life-long sacrifice for my family and I.
 
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