General Questions Regarding USAF Flying

J

Jones14

Well-Known Member
I want to start off by admitting that I may be getting ahead of myself with some of these questions, I'm aware of it. This whole thread may be full of some things I shouldn't quite admit, but I'm just looking for the straight and skinny on a few things.

I'm in the process of applying for OTS and eventually UPT for the Air Force. I have taken the AFOQT and am now anxiously awaiting my results. The rest of my items have been submitted to my OR. The board meets in August, so it's the waiting game. I've been battling a few thoughts that he planted in my brain the last time we spoke. Putting all of the "Officer over Pilot" stuff aside for right now, he asked me what has drawn me to apply for a commission. I answered becoming a pilot.

A little later, he was telling me a few situations recently where very qualified people applied solely for a pilot position, and were not selected. Alluding to the fact that you may seem selfish in the eyes of the board for not being flexible to the needs of the Military. He also went on to say that if you apply Pilot #1, Nav #2 and are offered a Nav slot, then decline the offer, you might as well go kick rocks. Maybe I got it all wrong. After all, if you apply solely pilot, and there's no seats to fill then you're out of luck.

So there's the main issue. Like so many others, flying is "in my blood," or whatever cliche you want to use. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket working towards my civilian CPL/Multi for the last three years, while working full time as an airline mechanic. I feel like I'm very passionate and dedicated to making this goal happen. I do want to be flexible towards the needs of the military, and in doing so it will open more doors for a commission.

The second set of questions comes into play about being a Navigator. I know very little about the role of the Nav, beyond what is obvious. If you spent 20 years serving as a Nav, what options are available to you in the civilian aviation world? (See, getting ahead of myself) Do Nav's log time similarly to the Pilots? For instance, would _____ Airlines look at you the same? I'm honestly not thinking that the military is just a stepping stone to some major airline. That's so backwards, believe me I work for one.

Anyway, these questions are kind of stemming from what I imagine a Nav riding backseat in an F-15 would do. What about a Nav in a C-17 or C-130? I'm certainly not opposed to being "just a Nav." That's ridiculous, but I don't want to put it on my application in hopes of seeming "flixible." I need an Air Force Navigator 101 course here, links are cool too.

Something else I've been curious about for a long time is the different missions that each airframe carries out. For instance, I've read some really great stories about C-130 pilots landing on dirt strips in Africa while flying in supplies to the locals. Basically camping out and fending for themselves before their return trip. That's like pure adventure. Aviation porn. It would be very interesting to read about the varied missions of each aircraft, and formulate my own direction to shoot for. Of course, only if I get a shot at a flying career with the military.

Again, I know these are not really the topics I should be focused on at the moment. I don't want to be ridiculed or anything (it's a chat forum, bombs away!). I'm just a new guy that's purely interested in learning about what you do... and maybe fulfilling some of my own curiosity.
 
Jones14 said:
A little later, he was telling me a few situations recently where very qualified people applied solely for a pilot position, and were not selected. Alluding to the fact that you may seem selfish in the eyes of the board for not being flexible to the needs of the Military. He also went on to say that if you apply Pilot #1, Nav #2 and are offered a Nav slot, then decline the offer, you might as well go kick rocks. Maybe I got it all wrong. After all, if you apply solely pilot, and there's no seats to fill then you're out of luck.
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When I applied for OTS in 1994, I put pilot only. I had no #2 or #3.....or any others.

In the interview, when asked about that, I was simply honest. I told them that at the time when they're losing guys to the airlines, Im trying to go the other way. Im offering my services to the service. If they want me, great. If not, well....ok; Ill continue with my civilian flying career. While it's obvious I want to be an AF officer, this is the job Id like to do in the AF. They asked me the honest question, I gave the honest answer.....and purely matter of fact, nothing arrogant or self-aggrandizing. What might have made a difference for me was that I was already prior enlisted, so I had already been serving and ad already done a job in the AF. Regardless, it took awhile and a few board screenings of the package, but I was eventually selected for OTS.....for pilot; as that was all I put down for. So, your mileage might vary.

But know one thing. If you want to be flexible to the needs of the military, then you have to accept that flexibility if thats what you're later selected for. If you don't want to be and only want a few jobs, then be honest with that by putting those down like that.

The second set of questions comes into play about being a Navigator. I know very little about the role of the Nav, beyond what is obvious. If you spent 20 years serving as a Nav, what options are available to you in the civilian aviation world? (See, getting ahead of myself) Do Nav's log time similarly to the Pilots? For instance, would _____ Airlines look at you the same? I'm honestly not thinking that the military is just a stepping stone to some major airline. That's so backwards, believe me I work for one.
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Nav time isn't pilot time. Airlines don't look at them the same. It's Nav time, just like it's FE time for Flight Engineers.

Anyway, these questions are kind of stemming from what I imagine a Nav riding backseat in an F-15 would do. What about a Nav in a C-17 or C-130? I'm certainly not opposed to being "just a Nav." That's ridiculous, but I don't want to put it on my application in hopes of seeming "flixible." I need an Air Force Navigator 101 course here, links are cool too.
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Even though they're all called "Combat Systems Officers" now.....CSOs; the different jobs play out as such: There are WSOs, Weapons Systems Officers, who are the backseaters of F-15Es and B-1s, who work the weapons deliveries, etc and operate the radars; there are Table Navigators....guys on C-130s (none on C-17s), B-52s who do the "classic" Navigator job of getting a plane from pt A to pt B, primarily for precision stuff like airdrops, etc; and there are EWOs, Electronic Warfare Officers, guys on B-52s and others who specialize at jamming enemy radars, etc.

Again, I know these are not really the topics I should be focused on at the moment. I don't want to be ridiculed or anything (it's a chat forum, bombs away!). I'm just a new guy that's purely interested in learning about what you do... and maybe fulfilling some of my own curiosity.
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Well, you still suck. Just so you know.

:D
 
Good advice and information. I've got some researching to do. I just turned 26, cannot be picky at this point. But, at what point does a guy let go of his dream? Your second choice in the Military still might top flying around a dirty bus full of grumpy business people.

MikeD said:
Well, you still suck. Just so you know.
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And after the lenghts I went to... sheesh :cool:
 
Jones14 said:
Good advice and information. I've got some researching to do. I just turned 26, cannot be picky at this point. But, at what point does a guy let go of his dream? Your second choice in the Military still might top flying around a dirty bus full of grumpy business people.
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Only you can determine the answer to that question; as everybody's likes, desires, and personal situations are different.
 
Mike summed it up pretty well for you. I flew a plane with a backseater and quite frankly being a WSO is something I would never want to do.

Jones14 said:
Your second choice in the Military still might top flying around a dirty bus full of grumpy business people.
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After 11 yrs my first choice could not even top that. I enjoyed the lifestyle "flying a dirty 'Bus' full of....."
 
Springer said:
After 11 yrs my first choice could not even top that. I enjoyed the lifestyle "flying a dirty 'Bus' full of....."
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I'm not quite sure that I'm following what you mean about airline flying. I don't mean any disrespect, I've just been jaded over the last few years working for the regionals. Maybe that's the key word... regional.

On a good note I got my AFOQT scores today. A few weak areas, but overall I did well where I needed to.

99/86/70/42/86
 
There are a crapload of jaded, angry, and unhappy pilots who fly for the USAF, too. It's an incredibly rewarding career path, but it certainly comes with it's own laundry list of problems (which IMHO have been on the increase for the last 6-9 years).
 
Hacker15e said:
There are a crapload of jaded, angry, and unhappy pilots who fly for the USAF, too. It's an incredibly rewarding career path, but it certainly comes with it's own laundry list of problems (which IMHO have been on the increase for the last 6-9 years).
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Yeah I didn't imagine it to be all rainbows and unicorns. I've read about everyone's "SLJ" that drives them nuts, and family/social life sure takes a hit. If you don't care to elaborate a bit more, I'm here to learn.

It's naive, but I was always under the impression that the military, specifically the AF in one retired co-workers description, takes good care of it's people. It's not handed to you, but really is a heck of a way to to make a living. He was a career avionics tech.
 
Hacker15e said:
There are a crapload of jaded, angry, and unhappy pilots who fly for the USAF, too. It's an incredibly rewarding career path, but it certainly comes with it's own laundry list of problems (which IMHO have been on the increase for the last 6-9 years).
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Very true about the rewarding part but I had to chuckle at the last statement. The problems have been on going for the last 40 years. The USAF had the highest DOS rate ever in the '78-'79 time frame with Bergstrom taking the lead. We had Aircrew Concern Conferences with the heavies back then but it never went anywhere. Have to say I am impressed with the level of military pay compared to the airlines now than back then.
 
Jones14 said:
I'm not quite sure that I'm following what you mean about airline flying. I don't mean any disrespect, I've just been jaded over the last few years working for the regionals. Maybe that's the key word... regional.

On a good note I got my AFOQT scores today. A few weak areas, but overall I did well where I needed to.

99/86/70/42/86
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The quality of life and $$$ far exceeded what I would have attained had I stayed in the military. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the AF and all that it provided me. Had I been selected for a certain assignment, I would have continued past the 11 years I put in.

I flew for a major; apples and oranges compared to the regionals.

Congrats on the AFOQT....you are on your way!
 
Your fellow pilots (and Sailors/Airmen/Marines) take care of you. Big AF/Navy/USMC/Army sees you as a number. Don't mistake the two. It's a good life, and I've enjoyed all of it, but don't think that the military machine won't look for as many possibilities to screw you as some civilian employer will. It's not personal, but it happens here as well.
 
Jones14 said:
Yeah I didn't imagine it to be all rainbows and unicorns. I've read about everyone's "SLJ" that drives them nuts, and family/social life sure takes a hit. If you don't care to elaborate a bit more, I'm here to learn
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The biggest issue is simply the operations tempo. With the war, deployments are happening often and frequently. Guys who are in operational assignments make multiple trips to the desert per assignment, and guys who are in the training command as instructors are getting tagged to go deploy, too. People are spending a LOT of time away from home. Compared to the first half of my career, I've spent easily 2-3 times more deployed away from home in the second half of my career, and I think that's a pretty typical experience for people from a wide variety of USAF flying communities.

After 10 years of this, it's REALLY starting to wear on people, and the next 3-5 years are going to see a lot of people leaving as soon as their commitments are up.

Additionally, there has been a perceptible cultural shift in the USAF over the last 6-9 years. The bizarre part which defies explanation is that it's a shift away from focus on the mission, and toward a lot of little things that don't matter in the grand scheme of mission accomplishment. It's probably best summarized as "compliance is more important than achievement". It's tough to explain, but the gist of it is that the important stuff like being good at flying and fixing airplanes is becoming less important than how our mustaches or uniforms look, or any number of asinine little pet issues. If you do a little reading over on Baseops.net, you can get a lit of a flavor for what I'm talking about.


Jones14 said:
It's naive, but I was always under the impression that the military, specifically the AF in one retired co-workers description, takes good care of it's people. It's not handed to you, but really is a heck of a way to to make a living. He was a career avionics tech.
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It's not naive at all -- in fact, the brotherhood of the profession of arms is the #1 reason to be in/get in/stay in.

I think unfortunately for many folks, the other "bad" stuff is starting to significantly outweigh the "good".
 
Springer said:
Very true about the rewarding part but I had to chuckle at the last statement. The problems have been on going for the last 40 years.
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You're absolutely right -- there's nothing new under the sun.

I joined in the mid 90s, and the "culture" of the AF when I joined is significantly different than the one there is right now, and unfortunately I think that it's moving toward the wrong direction.

I'm sure that you'd have seen the culture of Big Blue when I joined, and thought it all messed up when compared to what it was 10 or 20 years prior to that, too.
 
Hacker15e said:
You're absolutely right -- there's nothing new under the sun.

I joined in the mid 90s, and the "culture" of the AF when I joined is significantly different than the one there is right now, and unfortunately I think that it's moving toward the wrong direction.

I'm sure that you'd have seen the culture of Big Blue when I joined, and thought it all messed up when compared to what it was 10 or 20 years prior to that, too.
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It's the same in all branches it seems. Joined in '94 and things have changed significantly since then.
 
I've only been in for a little over two years, but here's my two cents:

Guys like Hacker obviously know what they're talking about, and I definitely see it in my short time in. At the same time, it makes me chuckle when I hear an A1C or a fellow LT reminisce about the good ol' days of the Air Force, like they were around to experience it. If I had a dollar for every time I hear something along the lines of "Man, back when guys like Robin Olds . . . " I would be wealthy. One major positive about the Air Force is that I hear very little complaining about coworkers.

Here's my take on the "officer first" line you'll hear. I'm finishing up in Little Rock and several majors I have flown with only fly once a week. They spend the rest of their weeks combing through flying regulations looking for ways to hack the mission, updating flying schedules, sending in bird strike reports, or dealing with general student issues in the schoolhouse. So yes, flying is a primary duty, but you will be handed plenty of other jobs (useful, useless, and everything in between) to carry out.

Just something to think about.

As far as the nav to civilian world, many navs go on to work as dispatchers for major airlines. Some can make north of $100,000.
 
Have you thought of Guard/Reserve... getting in with a unit and having them back you will certainly help your cause. They are badly in need of Nav's and have even offered it to me but I have declined but you seem more open to it. If you truly want to fly than try for that... you still have some time... not alot but enough to at least give one or two ots boards a try for pilot only. To be honest even if you put pilot only and they don't select you at this time they may offer you a nav slot whether you put it or not... that has been happening lately.

I strongly reccomend looking into guard/reserves though.
 
I have thought about Guard/Reserve and even tried to get the ball rolling with a few recruiters. Like almost anything military related, I don't know much about the positions besides they are part time. I just spoke witha friend who is finishing up his pilot training (HH-60's) and he suggested the same thing. I am not at all against the idea, but I have a few concerns right out of the gate.

I really want to make my contribution a full time-career. When I think "part-time" I think part time pay, benefits, and flying. Not to mention finding (I presume) another job in the area to make ends meet. I've heard of bumming, which can basically make you more full-time, but that's as deep as my knowledge goes on the subject. Everyone seems to think highly of that route. With so many options and assignments I feel like at some point, if I were to be offered a commission, that I'm going to think, "Damn, I wish I would have done that/known that/applied for that from the start."

My thought on going for AD is that if I somehow became miserable there is always the possibility of flowing down after my commitment. Vice versa is not an option. What would be worse, being unhappy while on AD or being "stuck," for lack of a better term, in the Guard/Reserve knowing you'll never be AD?

Hindsight is 20/20... I guess I'll just have to learn as I go. Besides, I think I would be happy with any flying position at this point.
 
Jones14 said:
My thought on going for AD is that if I somehow became miserable there is always the possibility of flowing down after my commitment. Vice versa is not an option. What would be worse, being unhappy while on AD or being "stuck," for lack of a better term, in the Guard/Reserve knowing you'll never be AD?
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That is true in the Navy, Marines and Army (Warrant Officers can go between guard and AD much easier than COs). That is absolutely not true for the Air Force. I would say that it is harder to palace chase AD to Guard/Res before your commitment is up, than it is to go from Guard to AD. Even with the RIF if AD gets a body off the guards dime they are like all about it.

As far as getting the ball rolling with the Guard/Res recruiters are like the last people you need to be talking to. Do some research and you'll kinda get the picture.
 
The big question is flying in the military as bad as baseops puts it? If you compare forums like airwarriors to baseops the navy/marine side sounds happier. Maybe thats just the type of people on each forum.
 
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