Future regional hiring

Citationkid said:
I have about 1700 hours with 600 multi, I am just starting to feel like I qualify to be a crewmember in a jet. No way I could have seen myself as a crewmember in a jet with 500 hours, maybe I just don't have any talent :)
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Well, considering you were what, 15 years old when you had 500 hours in your logbook, it's no wonder you feel that way. When you subtract all that time you logged riding shotgun with your mom, your flight experience is probably close to typical regional hiring mins.

Not to engage in playa hatin' here, but the reason you're feeling that way is because of the fundamental difference between experience and hours logged; that is, actually getting something out of the time, instead of just adding more ink to your logbook. Really, how many hours of multi and even turbine time had you logged before you were even old enough to legally solo? Quite a bit, IIRC. Ask yourself what the qualitative difference between an hour you log now vs one logged when you were 14 is, and be honest with yourself. For starters, you're PIC, not your mom. You're legally responsible for the safe outcome of each flight, it's your certificate on the line, and there's no one to bail you out should you screw up. At 14 or 15, I doubt you could even get your brain around the notion of being responsible for the lives of others and property worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions. (That's not a dig on you, btw, just a cognitive reality.)

During all those hours logged riding shotgun with your mom, how many times was the go/no-go decision yours to make? How often were you the one to decide whether you really had enough fuel, given the greater-than-forecast headwinds and the three extra pax your customer brought with them? How many times was your systems knowledge tested by an engine that didn't sound right, and how many times did you make the decision to divert because of it?

Sorry to use you as an example, Alex, but you make a great case in point for all those guys who think they're ready for a jet cockpit at 300 hrs, because they haven't faced most of those challenges, either.

That said, I do have to commend you because you're even thinking about these issues now, at a still relatively young age.
 
aloft said:
Well, considering you were what, 15 years old when you had 500 hours in your logbook, it's no wonder you feel that way. When you subtract all that time you logged riding shotgun with your mom, your flight experience is probably close to typical regional hiring mins.

Not to engage in playa hatin' here, but the reason you're feeling that way is because of the fundamental difference between experience and hours logged; that is, actually getting something out of the time, instead of just adding more ink to your logbook. Really, how many hours of multi and even turbine time had you logged before you were even old enough to legally solo? Quite a bit, IIRC. Ask yourself what the qualitative difference between an hour you log now vs one logged when you were 14 is, and be honest with yourself. For starters, you're PIC, not your mom. You're legally responsible for the safe outcome of each flight, it's your certificate on the line, and there's no one to bail you out should you screw up. At 14 or 15, I doubt you could even get your brain around the notion of being responsible for the lives of others and property worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions. (That's not a dig on you, btw, just a cognitive reality.)

During all those hours logged riding shotgun with your mom, how many times was the go/no-go decision yours to make? How often were you the one to decide whether you really had enough fuel, given the greater-than-forecast headwinds and the three extra pax your customer brought with them? How many times was your systems knowledge tested by an engine that didn't sound right, and how many times did you make the decision to divert because of it?

Sorry to use you as an example, Alex, but you make a great case in point for all those guys who think they're ready for a jet cockpit at 300 hrs, because they haven't faced most of those challenges, either.

That said, I do have to commend you because you're even thinking about these issues now, at a still relatively young age.
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Confused.

It was my understanding Alex made go/nogo PIC command decisions in complex turbine aircraft while operating in the IFR environment rather routinely.

It appears he has oodles more experience than you - not just in hours logged but in the exact quality of experience you find important - so I guess I don't get it.

Alex has a humility about his experience others should emulate.
 
Ian J said:
Alex has a humility about his experience others should emulate.
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No kidding. For someone his age to have the maturity he shows in his posts is pretty cool...especially when you look at some of his posts from when he first came on. The guy has matured *really* fast.
 
Just as an outsider looking in, it does seem that things are a bit slower to start than this time last year, but there are still plenty of regionals hiring.

Speaking from 33 years of experience in this economy, downturns come and downturns go. Are we headed for a downturn? Of course. We are already there. It will pass. My prediction is that we will be headed in the opposite direction this time next year, when the political front has stabilized. A downturn is fairly common with an election year anyway. Add-in a money sucking stagnated war front, and it is inevitable.

The Age 65 rule has only postponed things. Many have argued on here that it may not be postponing them as much as one would think either; Doug shared the top of his seniority list and showed those out on medical before age 60. Also, alot of these folks planned on getting out at 60, even with the furloughs and pay cuts, so they probably still will. (just the opinion of some guy who's only experience is reading virtually every post at JC and a few other sites.)

The nail in the coffin this year, to me, would be the mergers of major airlines, which seem to be coming quickly. It seems to me that the consolidations will be the bane of aspiring wannabes like myself way before the rest of the factors mentioned. (just the opinion of some guy who's only experience is reading virtually every post at JC and a few other sites.)

I am a wet commercial licensed pilot who just quit his cushy desk job to make a 1/3rd of his original pay(HOPEFULLY!) at a regional. That makes me nervous. If I can get in a regional right now at 400 hours, heck 300, it is awful tempting. I'd rather be there than sitting on the sidelines while the minimums go way up and hiring slows to a crawl, as is being prophesized here. Do I care if some of you take offense to that? I could give a flying you know whatskie. Some of you talked me out of taking a large loan that would already have me in an airline with probably a year to go to upgrade. So don't talk to me about how your way is the right way. I am sick of it. Your way worked for you. It is nice to share, but stop coming on here and condemning those that go another route. As long as they are not affecting your job by things such as PFJ.

The funny part of all this? Coming on here and foretelling of the end of this hiring spree is only going to make people like me speed our plans up. Think about it: If things are indeed slowing down, then I need to speed my plans up to get a chair, any chair, before the music stops. So instead of taking my time, getting some experience instructing, getting the hours needed to get on with a choice regional, I am going to bumrush the door to get in somewhere rather than nowhere.
 
Has anyone payed attention to what Doug "The Man" Taylor has said!?!?!

Doug Taylor said:
A couple points.

If you can't have a rational discussion without insulting one another or setting off the profanity filter, you don't belong in the thread. Grab a juice box, a blankie and take a nap.

Remember, this career is cyclical and largely follows the economic swings.

There are going to be good times and there are also going to be bad times, but if you're in it to win it, you'll be fine.

If you've followed even the most basic of guidance that most of at JC offer, keeping debt low, having a degree and a plan-B, you'll be fine if/when things get a little rocky.

But if you ran guns a blazing down to "sign right here, you'll make up that $100K loan with your first paycheck from TransGlobal, nevermind getting a degree and who needs a silly backup plan" you're probably going to get rocked.

I think we're seeing the first hints of a downturn. It's not aero armageddon but I don't think we're going to see many knife fights in the street between human resource managers fighting over pilot applicants.
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I was going to jump in here and say something, but then I saw Dougs post and I thought....."Damn..he's right!"

Why are we not talking about Women and Beer yet? :D
 
Ian J said:
Confused.

[snip]

It appears he has oodles more experience than you - not just in hours logged but in the exact quality of experience you find important - so I guess I don't get it.
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Appearances can be deceiving.

He'll have to confirm the numbers, but I think something close to one third of Alex' total time is "dual received" from his CFI mom while he was between the ages of 12-16 or so, lots of multi and possibly turbine time, while she flew Pt 91 corporate for somebody. Legal? Probably. Of questionable value? Arguably.

My point was that here's a pilot with 1700 hrs logged saying he's only just beginning to feel qualified to crew a jet, and it's likely due to the mismatch between his experience and his logbook; his true experience level is that of a pilot with a lot fewer hours.
 
I'll admit I have no idea about his background, so let's look what he's doing now:

He's a CFI.

He's the PIC of a multi-engine turbine airplane.

He flies IFR.

He has over 200 hours actual instrument.

His experience is leaps and bounds over the low-time pilots who currently think they're ready to ride right seat in a jet. In today's market he is over qualified for a regional airline.

A lot of higher time CFIs will also say they don't feel qualified to fly a passenger yet jet either because at a certain point they begin to realize and understand how much they don't know yet. A 300-700 hour non CFI pilot may say that, but not really mean it because they don't know what they don't know.
 
Thanks to the WONDERFUL advice of all the JC'ers out there I have changed my plans from attending a school that would have put me so far in debt I wouldn't have been able to get out of it for many years. instead I'm going the FBO route. I plan to Teach PPL Instrument and Multi as much as I can. I'm getting a BS in Computer Science(Backup/ fallback Plan) and once I'm done with all that. Approx 5 years. Hopefully all those that are sticking around till the new 65 cut off will be leaving as I'm trying to get in! That would be nice.
 
Oh my god, the sky is falling!

Not everyone works at ExpressJet. There are plenty of other airlines hiring pilots with different backgrounds (bridge programmers or CFI's, it doesn't matter). You might need to be more open minded and flexible, but there is still plenty of demand out there.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Just as an outsider looking in, it does seem that things are a bit slower to start than this time last year, but there are still plenty of regionals hiring.

Speaking from 33 years of experience in this economy, downturns come and downturns go. Are we headed for a downturn? Of course. We are already there. It will pass. My prediction is that we will be headed in the opposite direction this time next year, when the political front has stabilized. A downturn is fairly common with an election year anyway. Add-in a money sucking stagnated war front, and it is inevitable.

The Age 65 rule has only postponed things. Many have argued on here that it may not be postponing them as much as one would think either; Doug shared the top of his seniority list and showed those out on medical before age 60. Also, alot of these folks planned on getting out at 60, even with the furloughs and pay cuts, so they probably still will. (just the opinion of some guy who's only experience is reading virtually every post at JC and a few other sites.)

The nail in the coffin this year, to me, would be the mergers of major airlines, which seem to be coming quickly. It seems to me that the consolidations will be the bane of aspiring wannabes like myself way before the rest of the factors mentioned. (just the opinion of some guy who's only experience is reading virtually every post at JC and a few other sites.)

I am a wet commercial licensed pilot who just quit his cushy desk job to make a 1/3rd of his original pay(HOPEFULLY!) at a regional. That makes me nervous. If I can get in a regional right now at 400 hours, heck 300, it is awful tempting. I'd rather be there than sitting on the sidelines while the minimums go way up and hiring slows to a crawl, as is being prophesized here. Do I care if some of you take offense to that? I could give a flying you know whatskie. Some of you talked me out of taking a large loan that would already have me in an airline with probably a year to go to upgrade. So don't talk to me about how your way is the right way. I am sick of it. Your way worked for you. It is nice to share, but stop coming on here and condemning those that go another route. As long as they are not affecting your job by things such as PFJ.

The funny part of all this? Coming on here and foretelling of the end of this hiring spree is only going to make people like me speed our plans up. Think about it: If things are indeed slowing down, then I need to speed my plans up to get a chair, any chair, before the music stops. So instead of taking my time, getting some experience instructing, getting the hours needed to get on with a choice regional, I am going to bumrush the door to get in somewhere rather than nowhere.
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But you're not the person I'm talking with. You have a degree from an ivy league university, you have other skills, you've got work experience and military experience. If this all goes to pot, you can pay your bills. The person I'm talking with is...

-Young, under 25
-No college
-No real hours
-No CFI
-No work experience
-No other skill set
-No interests outside aviation (that one scares the pants off me right there)

You are in fact the polar opposite of that. This thread had NOTHING to do with taking a job as soon as you can, it had to do with what happens you lose that job and the market is drying up, which is what I think is happening right now.

And just as further proof that things can go south fast, the hedge fund that bought a huge chunk of us and said, "We want you to kill branded" now has managed to get a seat on our board.

Strap in.
 
:o

Oh

:o

I would certainly agree that ANYONE coming into this business should have some way of making ends meet should it all fall apart. It does not really even take much.

For all my Ivy league degree, cube farming, and military experience, you want to know the easiest thing for me to fall back on? Using my tractor trailer license I got back in college as a part time gig. Seriously. I could get a job today driving a truck paying $60k/yr minimum. Is it a dream job? No. But it is a GREAT thing to be able to fall back on should I need to.
 
I've had my CFI for less than a week, and only given a whopping 8 hours of dual instruction so what the hell do I know, but one thing I have already noticed that I love about being a CFI, and that I know will make me a much better pilot is always having to be 100% and flying your A game...Regardless of what you are doing, you should always try and be a 100%, but lets be honest...If you are out building time, or taking a weekend warrior ride for a hundred dollar hamburger, its easy to sit back and sort of relax the flight, especially on the trip home...As a CFI you cant do that. Not to toot my own horn, but to these primary students I am Aviation to them. If we were to go out and do maneuvers, and on the way back from the practice area I just relax and let my guard down I would be failing my students, and soon enough they would say "well Mike lets his guard down towards the end of the flight, thats normal", and they will start to do the same thing when they are off flying on their own because they will emulate how their instructor flys. Like I said, 8 hours, so what do I know, but I can already feel this attitude making me a better pilot.

I became a CFI because this was the career progression I was taught. I look at all the great pilots that I know, and all of them have told me that they have gotten to where they are because of the time they spent as a CFI and II. Thats what I want. I want to be as good, if not better as these guys I look up to, and for me, being a CFI is how I will begin to accomplish that. If you have 300 hours, and legitimately feel you are ready to fly jets, and can get hired and pass training than more power to ya...My only gripe is with people who makes excuses for not being a CFI. For example people who claim they aren't good teachers without ever having put any effort into it. Whatever though...

This topic is a dead horse, that will be beaten for a couple more days, disapear, and then come back in about 3 weeks.

Obviously this is an emotional topic, and the only thing I would recommend is that people watch what they say, and think with their head and not their emotion. Theres no reason to attack or burn bridges over something as stupid as this because you let your emotions get the best of ya...I hate to sound like a jerk, but if people skipping the CFI route pisses you off so much, keep your mouth shut, and one day when you are on a hiring board, when it comes down to the last two applicants who are identical aside from one being a former CFI, and the other who was not....well...Hire the former CFI. I guess thats a gamble that those who skip "this route" have to take. Skipping the CFI at 20 years old might get you an okay job at a regional now, but it very well may be the reason you don't get that great part 91 job in a couple years......

whatever floats your boat. Fly safe everyone, and don't let your emotions get the best of you!
 
BTW To everybody that's going to skip instructing, or towing banners, or throwing meat missiles or aerial survey:

What are you going to do when me and 300 other ExpressJet guys are on the street in October and are better qualified for the jobs you're seeking? Go back to...oh wait, you didn't instruct, or tow banners, or throw meat missiles, or do aerial survey, or anything else for that matter.

I know exactly what I'll be doing, and have plan A, B and C ready to rock already.
 
that's where that backup degree comes into effect.

John, if you're expecting to be shoved out the door in October, why even wait? I know you're passionate but it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom, just realistic.
 
speaking of....For the folks that don't get their CFI, that leaves you an open door then doesn't it? students will always need teachers.
 
zmiller4 said:
No kidding. For someone his age to have the maturity he shows in his posts is pretty cool...especially when you look at some of his posts from when he first came on. The guy has matured *really* fast.
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Hell yes. If I could, I'd adopt him and BCTAV8R.
 
jtrain609 said:
We've got...folks that are trying to get into an extremely competitive industry with the minimum qualifications. This is going to bite a bunch of people in the butt when they lose their jobs in the coming years, or worse yet if they can't get the job they're looking for.


If I were just getting into this industry, or looking at getting into it, I'd be looking at how to make myself as competitive as possible. Go get your four year degree, get your flight instructor certificates, build quality PIC time, take new and interesting jobs in aviation that will broaden your experience level. If you don't, I assure you that there are people out there who ARE doing this right now and when the furlough hits them, they'll have no problems finding a job.
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:yeahthat:
What a great post!!


Everytime someone starts a thread asking:
Can I skip getting a 4 year college degree
I don't want to instruct, can I go straight to the airlines
What regional will hire me with 300 hours

Almost every single person chimes in and says DO NOT DO IT!! They are telling you this for a reason. They are trying to give you the best advice they can. The job market for pilots is super competitve. If you try to make it through with the BARE MINIMUM qualifications (no 4 year college degree, no CFI, little flight time), you are putting yourself at a huge disadvantage. Jtrain said it so perfectly in another post... something like "In this industry, there are always going to be people better, smarter, more experienced, and better looking than you. What are you going to do to set yourself apart from them." Future pilots should try and become as competitive as possible. If you just get the bare minimum, I have news for you... you are not going to get far in this industry.

If you are looking to get into the airline industry now, you should try your hardest to make yourself as competitive as possible.
Get your 4 year college degree.
Get your CFI/II/MEI ratings
Flight instruct and learn a lot
Build up some quality experience doing something unique

You will be a better pilot because of it. And ultimately you will set yourself apart from others who are trying to get hired with the bare minimum qualifications. And guess what, if the two of you interview for the same job, YOU will get the job because you will be more competitive than the other person.

The airline industry is changing. The best thing any future pilot can do is make themselves as competitive as possible!
 
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